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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8408837" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Then Helldritch wanting to shut down discussion of anything that isn't core DnD, like the example I used involving Orcus and Kelemvor was inappropriate, because we can disucss those things. But he claimed "that's homebrew, we shouldn't take about it"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, there aren't. We've been discussing this for nearly 500 posts. We have found evidence that Archfiends grant clerical spells, up to and including 7th level and higher. We have them answering prayers. We have them served by clerics. We have them just as powerful as various gods. We have them creating new species. These are all the things we have been told only gods can do.</p><p></p><p>Across the editions we have found rules for both sides, which indicates strongly that the text of the whole of DnD that this distinction does not have a solid foundation. It has been contradicted and proven false time and time again. [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] has done an amazing job citing multiple sources, that I notice you have largely ignored. </p><p></p><p>There is no discernible difference, unless you stick to only certain passages, instead of looking at the whole. And, obviously, if you select only certain portions of the game and its history to follow, you can make any position seem irrefutable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes we have. Repeatedly. </p><p></p><p>And here is the thing Max, I think you are making the same mistake that Faolyn has been making. You assume I have some purpose beyond this. You assume I'm going to take an admission of redundancy to advocate for removing something from the game. Or for changing something in the game. </p><p></p><p>I'm not. I don't care if you want to say "in my game they aren't redundant because Archfiends are clearly weaker" or "in my game I keep both because I find it more interesting" or anything else. I'm not advocating for abolishing clerics. I'm not advocating for destroying warlocks. None of it. </p><p></p><p>All I am doing is showing that in the history of DnD, taken as a whole, and across editions, Archfiends and Evil Gods have been practically identical. There has not been a consistent distinction made, and narratively they fill the same roles. That's it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8408837, member: 6801228"] Then Helldritch wanting to shut down discussion of anything that isn't core DnD, like the example I used involving Orcus and Kelemvor was inappropriate, because we can disucss those things. But he claimed "that's homebrew, we shouldn't take about it" No, there aren't. We've been discussing this for nearly 500 posts. We have found evidence that Archfiends grant clerical spells, up to and including 7th level and higher. We have them answering prayers. We have them served by clerics. We have them just as powerful as various gods. We have them creating new species. These are all the things we have been told only gods can do. Across the editions we have found rules for both sides, which indicates strongly that the text of the whole of DnD that this distinction does not have a solid foundation. It has been contradicted and proven false time and time again. [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] has done an amazing job citing multiple sources, that I notice you have largely ignored. There is no discernible difference, unless you stick to only certain passages, instead of looking at the whole. And, obviously, if you select only certain portions of the game and its history to follow, you can make any position seem irrefutable. Yes we have. Repeatedly. And here is the thing Max, I think you are making the same mistake that Faolyn has been making. You assume I have some purpose beyond this. You assume I'm going to take an admission of redundancy to advocate for removing something from the game. Or for changing something in the game. I'm not. I don't care if you want to say "in my game they aren't redundant because Archfiends are clearly weaker" or "in my game I keep both because I find it more interesting" or anything else. I'm not advocating for abolishing clerics. I'm not advocating for destroying warlocks. None of it. All I am doing is showing that in the history of DnD, taken as a whole, and across editions, Archfiends and Evil Gods have been practically identical. There has not been a consistent distinction made, and narratively they fill the same roles. That's it. [/QUOTE]
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