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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8409524" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Because you started butting into the conversation and making points related to the discussion I was having with Helldritch. If you didn't want to be involved, you shouldn't have gotten involved.Because it shows that Archfiends grant spells. We have multiple examples of that thing happening. And the lines being blurred demonstrates that there is no demonstrable difference.Just like the other rules that refute them. Hence "lines being blurred". If you only want to examine one set of rules, I can't stop you, but it certainly demonstrates the issue at hand.And what about Archdemons? There is more than one set of fiends after all. But, sure, let's think this through. Archdevils tempt mortals... by doing what? They would generally offer things like power or wealth, things that the mortal wants. How do Evil Gods get followers? By offering the mortal something that they want. Religion in DnD is very transactional, just like the Roman style. Additionally, while gods might be worshiped just because... so might Archdevils. They collect souls... well, so do most Gods. The souls of their faithful go to the god's realm generally. And they rule layers in Hell... which is pretty identical to ruling a Divine Realm, especially for an evil god who would still have the back-stabbing lieutenants. So, again, the differences you are proposing are rather small, if they exist at all.And you have never supported this "bigger picture vs local power" dynamic with anything, in fact, after the last discussion we had on the subject, you abandoned that position claiming that by pursuing it I was making Asmodeus Omniscient. So, I'm not convinced by your attempt to make differences that don't seem to exist anywhere except your home game.Really? Huh. And how did Cyric become the God of the Dead? Was it by getting all the souls of the dead to believe in him? Or was it by killing Bhaal. Huh, and by "take on Cyric" wasn't there a big fight that Kelemvor won... and he ascended AFTER that fight. I admit I haven't read the novel in a very long time, but the Wiki entry specifically says "The two fought, a dead soul against a god. Cyric's fear, indecision, and madness became his defeat, and Kelemvor finally managed to overthrow Cyric's rule in the City." which makes it sound like he wasn't a god when he fought Cyric.One in a Billion is less impressive when you are working in the hundreds of trillions. But it sounds like Orcus being mortal is identical to every other Demon Lord from the way you are talking. Maybe not Demogorgon or Graz'zt, since we know their parentage, but all the others would have gone through the exact same journey, correct? I mean, if him once being a mortal didn't mean anything why do they mention it for him repeatedly, but never anyone else?Really? Because you specifically talked about how " He got the spirits of the dead to follow him and believe in him.  That power of follower belief" which is literally assuming followers, so I guess my assumption was dead on the money.</blockquote>

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