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The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="Faolyn" data-source="post: 8409995" data-attributes="member: 6915329"><p>Is Michael Jordan a D&D god or arch-thing? No? He has nothing to do with D&D. However, discussing different ways to use and understand D&D gods, including completely homebrew ideas, is totally relevant.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, <em>maybe </em>two times a god has claimed another portfolio, and in this case, it wasn't one like "Truth" that had nothing to do with its previous portfolio; rather, it was one that was complimentary to its own.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So actually the gods <em>don't </em>squabble over the "constantly," like you said.</p><p></p><p>And new gods have "appeared" in the Realms often--by which I mean, the writers came up with them and inserted them into a book or adventure or novel. Those new gods each had portfolios which were new to the Realms. So the portfolios exist. You aren't aware of them until some god is written for them. It's not like there's a list of portfolios you get to cross off when you assign one.</p><p></p><p>Again, show that this is the case. You are claiming that portfolios aren't just laying around for the taking. Show that Vecna stole or was granted the portfolio "secrets of magic" from some other god.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Show us the cosmic balance. Then, show us that when, a mortal ascends, it unbalances the cosmos. Unless you have some source I don't know about, you have no idea how much is needed to unbalance the cosmos. Prove that the ascension of a mortal will change its balance, especially to the point that other people (possibly including mortals) will even notice.</p><p></p><p>For all you know, it may take two, ten, hundreds, maybe <em>thousands</em> of mortals ascending to godhood to change the cosmic balance--<em>if </em>the cosmic balance can even be changed in this manner. And maybe it can't. The third layer of Arcadia was, thanks to the Harmonium, changed from Lawful Neutral Good (or possibly LGN) to Lawful Neutral and got sucked out of Arcadia and became a cog in Mechanus--and the balance of the cosmos remained unchanged. Sure, people got really pissed at the Harmonium and worried about what would happen if things got worse, but the Great Wheel keeps chugging along. At least until 4th edition, but it's back in shape now.</p><p></p><p>Ravenloft, once a demiplane in the Ethereal, got moved to the Shadowfell. The paraelemental and quasilemental planes got turned into a single unit, the Elemental Chaos. Entire new Material Planes come into existence, not only with the creation of each new setting but with the start of each new <em>game. </em>The cosmos contains an infinite number of infinite layers. But the Great Wheel keeps chugging.</p><p></p><p>One mortal becoming a god is literally <em>nothing </em>in comparison to that.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I wasn't talking about the discussion we're having. I was talking about creating gods and sticking them in the pantheon, and you insisted that it has to be done by determining their role and purpose first ("you're doing it backwards," which is literally the same as "you're doing it wrong.") and then only using them if they're "necessary" (i.e., if you're using them when they're not necessary, you're doing it wrong").</p><p></p><p>Not "I personally think it should be done role/purpose first." Instead, you outright said I was doing it wrong because I wasn't doing it <em>your </em>way.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Pretty much everything you've said has been against having redundant gods. Even the bit you misunderstood above was you saying that having redundant gods was unnecessary.</p><p></p><p>So, if you don't care if redundant gods exist, and you don't care that people have them in their games, then what's your purpose in harping on their redundancy? Are you simply not going to be happy until everyone participating in this thread says "Yes! These gods <em>are </em>redundant!"</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm pretty sure that they've both either posted quotes from books that support their stance, or that other people have posted those quotes. In other words, their <strong><u>RULES</u></strong> have textural support. As opposed to your "it stands to reason" claims.</p><p></p><p>I mean, the gods of Greyhawk and the gods of the Realms work differently--there's no Ao telling the Greyhawk gods they can't have two gods with the same portfolio--and you're treating them like they're the same!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Personality has <em>everything </em>to do with the gods. Its why you have war gods that are good, evil, lawful, chaotic, and neutral.</p><p></p><p>And yes, Boccob, like probably all other D&D gods, is <em>not </em>omniscient. His goal is to learn all that there is to know about magic. This means that his knowledge is incomplete. That's where Vecna steps in. His goal is to obfuscate information about magic and other things. Boccob uncovers magical knowledge where he can, makes it so others can learn it. Vecna hides magical knowledge where he can.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Because honestly, your sources have mostly been pretty weak, along the lines of "hah, the archfiends grant 7th-level spells back in 1e, therefore they're just like gods!" (I literally do not care if they also granted 9th-level spells in 3e.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes? I don't see the issues here. Just because he has a canon answer that he's following doesn't mean that he's wrong when he says DMs can change anything they like, or that he isn't arguing canon. I fail to see the problem here.</p><p></p><p></p><p>According to this, <a href="https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Saint_Cuthbert#Creative_Origins" target="_blank">Cuthbert </a>was first mentioned in The Dragon #2, in '76, whereas <a href="https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Heironeous#Creative_origins" target="_blank">Heironeous </a>didn't appear into Dragon #67, in '82.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope. Because Caoimhin still isn't the god of calories. He's the god of food. And that's just moving the goalposts. Honesty was an aspect of being a paladin, but not the only one. And the fact that Boccob and Cuthbert both share honesty doesn't mean one is stepping on the other's toes. It just means they have a trait in common.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, Gygax strongly hinted that Cuthbert got apotheosed here on Earth and then went to Oerth, so if there was any sort of alteration to any cosmic balance, it wouldn't be on Greyhawk. Because he was already a god when he arrived.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you get annoyed that the conversation isn't 100% focused on what you want it to be, and when people use facts to back up their assertions. So you want people to pay attention to you and only you, and to believe everything you say without question or opinion of their own.</p><p></p><p>Oh-<em>kay....</em></p><p></p><p>So you are literally saying that there is <em>no </em>reason to actually try to communicate with you, unless it's to, what, to tell you that you're right?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Faolyn, post: 8409995, member: 6915329"] Is Michael Jordan a D&D god or arch-thing? No? He has nothing to do with D&D. However, discussing different ways to use and understand D&D gods, including completely homebrew ideas, is totally relevant. So, [I]maybe [/I]two times a god has claimed another portfolio, and in this case, it wasn't one like "Truth" that had nothing to do with its previous portfolio; rather, it was one that was complimentary to its own. So actually the gods [I]don't [/I]squabble over the "constantly," like you said. And new gods have "appeared" in the Realms often--by which I mean, the writers came up with them and inserted them into a book or adventure or novel. Those new gods each had portfolios which were new to the Realms. So the portfolios exist. You aren't aware of them until some god is written for them. It's not like there's a list of portfolios you get to cross off when you assign one. Again, show that this is the case. You are claiming that portfolios aren't just laying around for the taking. Show that Vecna stole or was granted the portfolio "secrets of magic" from some other god. Show us the cosmic balance. Then, show us that when, a mortal ascends, it unbalances the cosmos. Unless you have some source I don't know about, you have no idea how much is needed to unbalance the cosmos. Prove that the ascension of a mortal will change its balance, especially to the point that other people (possibly including mortals) will even notice. For all you know, it may take two, ten, hundreds, maybe [I]thousands[/I] of mortals ascending to godhood to change the cosmic balance--[I]if [/I]the cosmic balance can even be changed in this manner. And maybe it can't. The third layer of Arcadia was, thanks to the Harmonium, changed from Lawful Neutral Good (or possibly LGN) to Lawful Neutral and got sucked out of Arcadia and became a cog in Mechanus--and the balance of the cosmos remained unchanged. Sure, people got really pissed at the Harmonium and worried about what would happen if things got worse, but the Great Wheel keeps chugging along. At least until 4th edition, but it's back in shape now. Ravenloft, once a demiplane in the Ethereal, got moved to the Shadowfell. The paraelemental and quasilemental planes got turned into a single unit, the Elemental Chaos. Entire new Material Planes come into existence, not only with the creation of each new setting but with the start of each new [I]game. [/I]The cosmos contains an infinite number of infinite layers. But the Great Wheel keeps chugging. One mortal becoming a god is literally [I]nothing [/I]in comparison to that. I wasn't talking about the discussion we're having. I was talking about creating gods and sticking them in the pantheon, and you insisted that it has to be done by determining their role and purpose first ("you're doing it backwards," which is literally the same as "you're doing it wrong.") and then only using them if they're "necessary" (i.e., if you're using them when they're not necessary, you're doing it wrong"). Not "I personally think it should be done role/purpose first." Instead, you outright said I was doing it wrong because I wasn't doing it [I]your [/I]way. Pretty much everything you've said has been against having redundant gods. Even the bit you misunderstood above was you saying that having redundant gods was unnecessary. So, if you don't care if redundant gods exist, and you don't care that people have them in their games, then what's your purpose in harping on their redundancy? Are you simply not going to be happy until everyone participating in this thread says "Yes! These gods [I]are [/I]redundant!" I'm pretty sure that they've both either posted quotes from books that support their stance, or that other people have posted those quotes. In other words, their [B][U]RULES[/U][/B] have textural support. As opposed to your "it stands to reason" claims. I mean, the gods of Greyhawk and the gods of the Realms work differently--there's no Ao telling the Greyhawk gods they can't have two gods with the same portfolio--and you're treating them like they're the same! Personality has [I]everything [/I]to do with the gods. Its why you have war gods that are good, evil, lawful, chaotic, and neutral. And yes, Boccob, like probably all other D&D gods, is [I]not [/I]omniscient. His goal is to learn all that there is to know about magic. This means that his knowledge is incomplete. That's where Vecna steps in. His goal is to obfuscate information about magic and other things. Boccob uncovers magical knowledge where he can, makes it so others can learn it. Vecna hides magical knowledge where he can. Because honestly, your sources have mostly been pretty weak, along the lines of "hah, the archfiends grant 7th-level spells back in 1e, therefore they're just like gods!" (I literally do not care if they also granted 9th-level spells in 3e.) Yes? I don't see the issues here. Just because he has a canon answer that he's following doesn't mean that he's wrong when he says DMs can change anything they like, or that he isn't arguing canon. I fail to see the problem here. According to this, [URL='https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Saint_Cuthbert#Creative_Origins']Cuthbert [/URL]was first mentioned in The Dragon #2, in '76, whereas [URL='https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Heironeous#Creative_origins']Heironeous [/URL]didn't appear into Dragon #67, in '82. Nope. Because Caoimhin still isn't the god of calories. He's the god of food. And that's just moving the goalposts. Honesty was an aspect of being a paladin, but not the only one. And the fact that Boccob and Cuthbert both share honesty doesn't mean one is stepping on the other's toes. It just means they have a trait in common. Well, Gygax strongly hinted that Cuthbert got apotheosed here on Earth and then went to Oerth, so if there was any sort of alteration to any cosmic balance, it wouldn't be on Greyhawk. Because he was already a god when he arrived. So, you get annoyed that the conversation isn't 100% focused on what you want it to be, and when people use facts to back up their assertions. So you want people to pay attention to you and only you, and to believe everything you say without question or opinion of their own. Oh-[I]kay....[/I] So you are literally saying that there is [I]no [/I]reason to actually try to communicate with you, unless it's to, what, to tell you that you're right? [/QUOTE]
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