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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8410024" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Sure. But how is this more canonical than the scenario in City of GH boxed set? Or the cleric of Orcus in the Dead Gods module?</p><p></p><p>I mean, it's all just stuff that is being published. And what is shows is that, when the rubber hits the road - ie when authors of scenarios want cult leaders and evil high priest-types and the like - they do not hesitate to have them be clerics of Asmodeus or of Orcus, even if there is some other book published, or going to be published in the future, that tells them not to.</p><p></p><p>And who would blame them? Orcus is one of the most evocative beings conceived of across the D&D corpus. Why not put him to work! Likewise for many of the other demon princes and archdevils.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, my guess is that the number of PC clerics of Orcus who were really drawing power from the Chaos and Evil of the Abyss, and hence were protected from the "ex-cleric" rule, is pretty low. Even back in the AD&D days, I doubt that the GM enforcement provisions on p 38 of the DMG were widely used against players of evil high priests whose characters weren't being sufficiently cruel or venal!</p><p></p><p>I don't think anything meaningful changes, in the typical play experience, by supposing that the cleric of Orcus is really empowered by the Abyss without demonic mediation.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, he's not a cleric. But he's not a warlock - there is no curse; and in 4e more generally there is no demonic pact (cf infernal pact) warlock (unless you include the dark pact), and the only extent demonic warlock I know of is Maldrick Scarmaker (who is a star pact warlock and has the curse etc).</p><p></p><p>Here's the text for Deathpriest Hierophant (p 209 of the MM):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Cultists of Orcus are demented individuals, and this deathpriest has risen to their highest ranks. He is not a cleric, since Orcus lives in the Abyss and cannot grant divine magic to his priests. Nevertheless, he is blessed with great power from his demonic master, and himself teeters on the edge between life and death. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Deathpriest hierophants are among Orcus's most powerful worshippers. A few of them no the ritual to summon an aspect of Orcus. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">A deathpriest hierophant usually leads a cult of several under members, spread out over a large area. He appoints lesser deathpriests to lead smaller groups within the cult, and each group is usually tasked with a specific goal, such as desecrating a temple, stealing bones from a king's tomb, or poisoning a village's water supply.</p><p></p><p>And there is (on p 210) a whole entry on Cults of Orcus above stats for Deathpriests and Crimson Acolytes. It doesn't add a great deal more that is relevant to the current discussion, other than referring to "devotees", "followers" and "worshippers", and describing blood sacrifices including the following: "His cultists . . . say that Orcus tastes the blood his worshippers drink."</p><p></p><p>None of that seems consistent to me with the notion that Orcus (and like fiends) do not have worshippers, do not empower their followers except via warlock-style pacts, etc.</p><p></p><p>The deathpriest hierophant is equipped with a censer - a clerical item if ever there was one. The deathpriest and the hierophant both wear heavy armour (mail and plate respectively) and use maces, the quintessential D&D cleric weapon. They both have aura and AoE debuffs (for the deathpriest but not the hierophant this also grants an AC buff to allies). The deathpriest also has a necrotic ray - an evil version of Lance of Faith, in effect - and the hierophant has Vision of Death, a ranged psychic attack which I think would benefit from the Fear keyword.</p><p></p><p>Both are controllers, not skirmishers; the DMG, in its discussion of NPCs, classes clerics as controllers and warlocks as skirmishers.</p><p></p><p>To me, that all speaks strongly of clerics in functional terms, even though - consistently with the 4e cosmology - they are not <em>literally </em>clerics because getting their power from Orcus and not a god.</p><p></p><p>Or to put it another way: if someone wanted an illustration of the difference between evil gods and their worshippers, and demon princes and their worshippers, I don't see how this part of the 4e MM would help!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8410024, member: 42582"] Sure. But how is this more canonical than the scenario in City of GH boxed set? Or the cleric of Orcus in the Dead Gods module? I mean, it's all just stuff that is being published. And what is shows is that, when the rubber hits the road - ie when authors of scenarios want cult leaders and evil high priest-types and the like - they do not hesitate to have them be clerics of Asmodeus or of Orcus, even if there is some other book published, or going to be published in the future, that tells them not to. And who would blame them? Orcus is one of the most evocative beings conceived of across the D&D corpus. Why not put him to work! Likewise for many of the other demon princes and archdevils. [B][/B] Well, my guess is that the number of PC clerics of Orcus who were really drawing power from the Chaos and Evil of the Abyss, and hence were protected from the "ex-cleric" rule, is pretty low. Even back in the AD&D days, I doubt that the GM enforcement provisions on p 38 of the DMG were widely used against players of evil high priests whose characters weren't being sufficiently cruel or venal! I don't think anything meaningful changes, in the typical play experience, by supposing that the cleric of Orcus is really empowered by the Abyss without demonic mediation. Right, he's not a cleric. But he's not a warlock - there is no curse; and in 4e more generally there is no demonic pact (cf infernal pact) warlock (unless you include the dark pact), and the only extent demonic warlock I know of is Maldrick Scarmaker (who is a star pact warlock and has the curse etc). Here's the text for Deathpriest Hierophant (p 209 of the MM): [indent]Cultists of Orcus are demented individuals, and this deathpriest has risen to their highest ranks. He is not a cleric, since Orcus lives in the Abyss and cannot grant divine magic to his priests. Nevertheless, he is blessed with great power from his demonic master, and himself teeters on the edge between life and death. . . . Deathpriest hierophants are among Orcus's most powerful worshippers. A few of them no the ritual to summon an aspect of Orcus. . . . A deathpriest hierophant usually leads a cult of several under members, spread out over a large area. He appoints lesser deathpriests to lead smaller groups within the cult, and each group is usually tasked with a specific goal, such as desecrating a temple, stealing bones from a king's tomb, or poisoning a village's water supply.[/indent] And there is (on p 210) a whole entry on Cults of Orcus above stats for Deathpriests and Crimson Acolytes. It doesn't add a great deal more that is relevant to the current discussion, other than referring to "devotees", "followers" and "worshippers", and describing blood sacrifices including the following: "His cultists . . . say that Orcus tastes the blood his worshippers drink." None of that seems consistent to me with the notion that Orcus (and like fiends) do not have worshippers, do not empower their followers except via warlock-style pacts, etc. The deathpriest hierophant is equipped with a censer - a clerical item if ever there was one. The deathpriest and the hierophant both wear heavy armour (mail and plate respectively) and use maces, the quintessential D&D cleric weapon. They both have aura and AoE debuffs (for the deathpriest but not the hierophant this also grants an AC buff to allies). The deathpriest also has a necrotic ray - an evil version of Lance of Faith, in effect - and the hierophant has Vision of Death, a ranged psychic attack which I think would benefit from the Fear keyword. Both are controllers, not skirmishers; the DMG, in its discussion of NPCs, classes clerics as controllers and warlocks as skirmishers. To me, that all speaks strongly of clerics in functional terms, even though - consistently with the 4e cosmology - they are not [I]literally [/I]clerics because getting their power from Orcus and not a god. Or to put it another way: if someone wanted an illustration of the difference between evil gods and their worshippers, and demon princes and their worshippers, I don't see how this part of the 4e MM would help! [/QUOTE]
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