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The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8410106" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>There is no such rule in AD&D materials up to and including the original MotP. There was no such rule in early AD&D 2nd ed, when the Greyhawk City boxed set was published. There is no such rule in 4e D&D.</p><p></p><p>Those are not trivial portions of the history of published D&D material.</p><p></p><p>And the only rules that I've been pointed to are in sourcebooks like Fiendish Codex, BoVd, and Guide to the Hells, none of which I have reason to think are more authoritative than (say) the Sahuagin entry in the original MM, or the description of the Horned Society as devil-worshippers in the original GH folio and boxed set.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sahuagin are described as devil worshippers. Likewise the Horned Society. In the original DDG, the Ixitxachitl are described as worshipping Demogorgon. In the 4e MM, in the passages I've quoted just upthread, the terms <em>devotee</em>, <em>follower</em> and <em>worshipper </em>are used interchangeably in relation to Orcus and his cults.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know where this is stated. Not in the AD&D MM or MM2. Not in the original DDG or MotP.</p><p></p><p>The 4e MM says this about devils (p 60):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Devils lust for the souls of mortals; each mortal spirit devils enslave undermines the gods' sway over mortalkind and adds to the Nine Hells' power. . . . Some evils seek to drive mortals into surrendering their souls through tyranny, despair, or terror; some seek to destroy the servants of the good-aligned gods and tear down their works; and still others are tempters and deceivers who inflame mortal ambitions, desire, greed, or pride.</p><p></p><p>Here is some of the text about Nerrul in the Guide to the World of Greyhawk from the boxed set (p 72):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The dreaded Nerull is the Foe of all Good, Hater of Life, Bringer of Darkness, King of All Gloom, Reaper of Flesh. He is the deity of all those who seek greatest evil for their enjoyment and gain. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Many humans of evil nature, and some humanoids as well, pay homage to Nerull. Assassins and thieves often regard this deity as patron. . . . His clerics dress in rust red or blackish-rust garments, carry staves, and somewhere bear the unholy skull and scythe symbol. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The worship of Nerull is done in full darkness. The litany is ghastly, being of death and suffering. Human sacrifice is common.</p><p></p><p>When I compare the text about Nerull to the text I quoted just upthread about Orcus, and compare both to the text about devils, I don't see any profound difference. Orcus and Nerull both have cults that involve bloody sacrifice. I'm pretty sure that the Orcus litany is as ghastly as Nerull's. And I'm sure that someone who seeks greatest evil for their enjoyment and gain might turn to a devil as much as to Nerull!</p><p></p><p>If someone wants to read in some deeper distinction between fiends and evil gods, or rely on some other published work I'm not familiar with, of course that's their prerogative. I'm just pointing out that those distinctions are not to be found in many of these D&D texts, both foundational ones like T1, GH, etc, and the original AD&D books including DDG; nor in the core books for 4e. Nor as far as I know in the core for 2nd ed AD&D or 3E either.</p><p></p><p>EDIT:</p><p></p><p>Hextor has no reality beyond what is published in certain texts.</p><p></p><p>Hextor in the WotG is interchangeable with various other gods (from DDG) and fiends. I know because I've done the changes/equivalences when running GH-based campaigns and it didn't matter! From p 69 of the Guide to the WoGH, "Hextor, Champion of Evil, Herald of Hell, Scourge of Battle" - he could be substituted for Bane, or treated as an archdevil, or even a demon in a campaign that is more casual about the Lower Planes, and it wouldn't change his core. His core being that (i) he has six arms and (ii) he is brother and rival of Heironeous. (I've just looked at the description on p 91 of the 3E PHB. It conforms entirely to what I've just said. And this is the sole premise for Speaker in Dreams.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8410106, member: 42582"] There is no such rule in AD&D materials up to and including the original MotP. There was no such rule in early AD&D 2nd ed, when the Greyhawk City boxed set was published. There is no such rule in 4e D&D. Those are not trivial portions of the history of published D&D material. And the only rules that I've been pointed to are in sourcebooks like Fiendish Codex, BoVd, and Guide to the Hells, none of which I have reason to think are more authoritative than (say) the Sahuagin entry in the original MM, or the description of the Horned Society as devil-worshippers in the original GH folio and boxed set. Sahuagin are described as devil worshippers. Likewise the Horned Society. In the original DDG, the Ixitxachitl are described as worshipping Demogorgon. In the 4e MM, in the passages I've quoted just upthread, the terms [I]devotee[/I], [I]follower[/I] and [I]worshipper [/I]are used interchangeably in relation to Orcus and his cults. I don't know where this is stated. Not in the AD&D MM or MM2. Not in the original DDG or MotP. The 4e MM says this about devils (p 60): [indent]Devils lust for the souls of mortals; each mortal spirit devils enslave undermines the gods' sway over mortalkind and adds to the Nine Hells' power. . . . Some evils seek to drive mortals into surrendering their souls through tyranny, despair, or terror; some seek to destroy the servants of the good-aligned gods and tear down their works; and still others are tempters and deceivers who inflame mortal ambitions, desire, greed, or pride.[/indent] Here is some of the text about Nerrul in the Guide to the World of Greyhawk from the boxed set (p 72): [indent]The dreaded Nerull is the Foe of all Good, Hater of Life, Bringer of Darkness, King of All Gloom, Reaper of Flesh. He is the deity of all those who seek greatest evil for their enjoyment and gain. . . . Many humans of evil nature, and some humanoids as well, pay homage to Nerull. Assassins and thieves often regard this deity as patron. . . . His clerics dress in rust red or blackish-rust garments, carry staves, and somewhere bear the unholy skull and scythe symbol. . . . The worship of Nerull is done in full darkness. The litany is ghastly, being of death and suffering. Human sacrifice is common.[/indent] When I compare the text about Nerull to the text I quoted just upthread about Orcus, and compare both to the text about devils, I don't see any profound difference. Orcus and Nerull both have cults that involve bloody sacrifice. I'm pretty sure that the Orcus litany is as ghastly as Nerull's. And I'm sure that someone who seeks greatest evil for their enjoyment and gain might turn to a devil as much as to Nerull! If someone wants to read in some deeper distinction between fiends and evil gods, or rely on some other published work I'm not familiar with, of course that's their prerogative. I'm just pointing out that those distinctions are not to be found in many of these D&D texts, both foundational ones like T1, GH, etc, and the original AD&D books including DDG; nor in the core books for 4e. Nor as far as I know in the core for 2nd ed AD&D or 3E either. EDIT: Hextor has no reality beyond what is published in certain texts. Hextor in the WotG is interchangeable with various other gods (from DDG) and fiends. I know because I've done the changes/equivalences when running GH-based campaigns and it didn't matter! From p 69 of the Guide to the WoGH, "Hextor, Champion of Evil, Herald of Hell, Scourge of Battle" - he could be substituted for Bane, or treated as an archdevil, or even a demon in a campaign that is more casual about the Lower Planes, and it wouldn't change his core. His core being that (i) he has six arms and (ii) he is brother and rival of Heironeous. (I've just looked at the description on p 91 of the 3E PHB. It conforms entirely to what I've just said. And this is the sole premise for Speaker in Dreams.) [/QUOTE]
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