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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 8410209" data-attributes="member: 6855114">Ok, you like Greyhawk and I strongly relate to that. I have almost everything that was printed on Greyhawk (if not in print, at least on PDF and always on the look out to get them in printed format). Unfortunately,  Greyhawk though the default setting of many editions save 5ed, was always referenced and not included on the core 3 books that are MM, PHB and DMG. Again, evil gods are a pretty much generic topic which in my mind requires a generic core book discussion. How demon princes and archdevils are treated on different othe books throughout the editions is, for me, irrelevant to the discussion at hands. As it is, the only lower plane creature mentioned to be a god in any core books of any edition is Asmodeus, and only since 4ed if I recall correctly as the Dawnwar pantheon was introduced right there. Prior to that, refer to each MM and no fiends were ever considered gods.And now let us expand to Greyhawk and 1ed stuff...Unless you use the UA (ishhh... but that is me and it is entirerly personal taste) and own the DDG, you can't even considered that the fiends are gods. So it leaves us the box set. All gods are listed in the appendix for the gods and guess what? No fiends there either. So we have to go for individual modules to see actually clerics of fiends. Where do they get these clerics? The DMG tells us that clerics can get spells up to second level by them sells and that higher level spells up to fifth are given by agents of a god with 5th level given by a demi god only. (This piece of info is repeated in the DDG by the way). If we take a look at T1-4. The highest level priest is following Iuz. All the other priests are lower than this an unable to cast 5th level spells. But a few are able to cast 3rd and 4th level. Inconsistency? Not really. Agents of a deity can give access to up to 4th level spells and only a demi god can give access to 5rh level spells. Would it be conceivable for a god such as Iuz to give these priest their 4th level spells through demonic agents? After all, these agents, if you read the DMG, these agents can be angels or fiends. So a demon lord or an arch devil could well serve as a conduit for a God. Since Iuz had invested a lot in the temple, it would not be unusual for him to give spells to the various elemental priest in the temple to maintain and have a chance to cash in on his investment.  By extension, it could be argued that fiend, though not gods but possible agents of a god, could grant up to 4th level. This would be extending a bit their powers but it might be an acceptable compromise.Through all other adventures fiend worshipping clerics are lower than 9th level so, the problem of fifth level does not arise until... D1-3, Vault of the Drow...Lolth was always a strange being from the beginning. Demoness or goddess? As the only demoness able to give higher level spells, it always struck me that Lolth was a goddess living in the Abyss. So in 1ed, that rule was always enacted. Fiends could have clerics, but these clerics were limited. For Hextor. Hextor is allied with hell. Would it be surprising that for having access to the armies of hells that he would help clerics of some arch devils to get higher level spells? After all, both Hextor and the Archdevil wins. Hextor wins access to devil legions and the devil wins a soul and many more as a cleric with some power unheard of can attract many followers (if not worshippers) and thus would gain more souls for the archdevil. Hextor loses but a few souls that might not even worship him in the first place. A win/win agreement.Now you have it. Everything falls into place and it would not even be the first time such agreements/trick would have been used by the gods. Isn't there a deity that continued to give spells to clerics of a rival deity she had slain to maintain the illusion that the goddess was still living so that she would slowly corrupt the clergy to worship her, thus adding an other domain to her portfolio? I think it was something with Shar or something along Darkness and illusions...In fact the only truly out of sync example that comes to mind as always been Banak in H1, Bloodstone Pass. Where does that f@$%#%#%%r gets his spells. The only thing that ever came to my mind has always been Banak was an exception. As in real life, there is always an exception.</blockquote>

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