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The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="Faolyn" data-source="post: 8412786" data-attributes="member: 6915329"><p>Because you seem to think that because you have homebrewed something in a particular way (i.e., that gods and archthings are interchangeable) that <em>that's </em>the way they are for the game in general.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Says who? If a city has temples to Gruumsh, then the worshipers are going to be interacting with the rest of the city.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Assuming the "she" is your Tana--it's because <em>you </em>decided that. </p><p></p><p>But thanks for confirming a major difference between archthings and gods, and thus showing that they are not truly redundant.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Then, by the way D&D works, those would be fiends, not gods. You have homebrewed your gods to work like fiends, but that's not the way D&D works.</p><p></p><p></p><p>"Maybe, maybe, maybe." And yet, you dismiss other people who say "maybe it's actually this other way" if that way contradicts you.</p><p></p><p>And it's not a question of "getting caught." It's a question of the religion that surrounds your faith changing, and changing you as a result. Would Loki be willing to "write a check he couldn't cash" if it meant that his religion changed and the god whose church he was trying to corrupt got merged into a single being, because the human worshipers came to conflate the two?</p><p></p><p>Another difference. Gods are subject to the thoughts and minds of mortals. Fiends aren't.</p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, show me where, canonically, fiends <em>care </em>about worshipers. </p><p></p><p>While they may <em>benefit </em>from worshipers, when it comes down to it, they only care about the soul. That has been shown in D&D time and time again. And they can get souls in a variety of ways, to the point that having worshipers provides only a fraction of the souls they need or want. As I said before, it's icing, not cake.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope, because if your destination after death relies on your belief, then being forced to convert against your will won't actually affect your beliefs, just your actions. It's probably why there actually <em>haven't </em>been that many canonical holy wars or gods who demand conversions in D&D.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In Eberron, it's unclear if those gods even exist. In every other setting gods die if they lose followers. Its why there's a bunch of god-corpses floating around in the Astral--and why those corpses can be resurrected with enough prayer.</p><p></p><p>And Eberron is not actually connected to the Great Wheel and uses an entirely different afterlife model than other setting--all souls go to Dolorh (or however it's spelled), regardless of faith. There's no actual petitioners.</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>Or</em> you can tell the story with both dragons and giants. And the story may very well be more interesting for including them both.</p><p></p><p>No matter what you're trying to claim here, you are very definitely advocating for getting rid of either gods or fiends. Between telling me I'm doing it wrong for how I would determine what gods to use to you saying that using both of them may create a muddled story. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions are continuously showing that you think that people shouldn't use both.</p><p></p><p>And also, having both fiends and gods in the setting doesn't mean I need to have them in the same story. I can run one adventure featuring Zuggtmoy and another one featuring Psylofir, and even those they have the same basic concept--fungi--the stories I tell with them would be completely different. Even if Psylofir were <em>evil</em> instead of neutral, the stories would be different.</p><p></p><p>Think about super hero comics for a moment. You can create a universe where all supers get their powers from a single source. I know there's been some universes like that.</p><p></p><p>Or, you can create a universe where--like with Marvel and DC--you can have supers who were born with their powers, got them from or because they're aliens, built super-suits, trained until they had incredible skills, were exposed to or injured by something radioactive, got zapped by magic or blessed by gods, were genetically engineered or cybernetically enhanced, or got splashed with heavy water while being struck by lightning. </p><p></p><p>You can tell equally good stories with <em>both </em>of those types of super hero universes. Or you can tell equally crappy stories. </p><p></p><p>Saying that having both fiends and gods in a game risks a muddled story is just blaming your tools. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Gasp! You mean real-world mythology doesn't necessarily mesh with D&D's rules?</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, <em>practically </em>the same thing, then. And, since Theros is a MtG setting, it's going to rely on their rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Which means you can have an archfiend and a god have incredibly different purposes, if you put your mind to it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Why not? Those "maybes" mattered for you up above.</p><p></p><p></p><p>By homebrewing it, sure. Or by using a setting that isn't connected to the Great Wheel. At the time of Planescape's publishing, <em>every</em> was part of the Great Wheel and used it. </p><p></p><p>You can homebrew <em>anything.</em> Much earlier, I said that I wasn't seeing much of a reason to have <em>any </em>gods and you replied that no, there was definitely a use for cosmic powers. So "maybe" I can just ignore you and homebrew a setting with no gods at all (or simply use Dark Sun), or have a setting with only evil god(s) and fiends (for instance, Ravenloft*, or the d20 setting Midnight) and no good gods, and thus invalidate your claims.</p><p></p><p>Once you bring in homebrew, anything is possible. So maybe stop going with "maybes".</p><p></p><p>* Assuming the Dark Powers fit somewhere in the god/archthings continuum.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The rules are: whatever you want in 5e, more distinct in earlier editions. But even in earlier editions they varied and contradicted each other, so pick what you want.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. But this fails to make archfiends and evil gods redundant. There may not be anything you preventing you from telling the same story, but that's only because <em>you </em>haven't come up with rules. Other people have. I have. In fact, I can come up with different rules for each setting I make, if I wanted to.</p><p></p><p>But right now, you're literally saying that your imagination is failing <em>you </em>in regards to telling different stories with gods and archfiends, or in even telling the difference between the two, and therefore, it's impossible for <em>anyone </em>to do so.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Who says it does?</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's universal as of every setting published in 2e. </p><p></p><p>You're also missing an important steps. A god can point to a petitioner and turn it into a devil or demon. An archfiend needs to put that same petitioner through the "cleansing" process to get the same result. In 2e, it took 11 days of hellfire to turn a larva into an imp or quasit. That would be automatic for a god. At most, it would require an action.</p><p></p><p></p><p>An archfiend vs. archfiend battle wouldn't be a holy war by definition, since there are no holy beings (gods) involved.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, because archfiends are not cosmic forces in that matter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Faolyn, post: 8412786, member: 6915329"] Because you seem to think that because you have homebrewed something in a particular way (i.e., that gods and archthings are interchangeable) that [I]that's [/I]the way they are for the game in general. Says who? If a city has temples to Gruumsh, then the worshipers are going to be interacting with the rest of the city. Assuming the "she" is your Tana--it's because [I]you [/I]decided that. But thanks for confirming a major difference between archthings and gods, and thus showing that they are not truly redundant. Then, by the way D&D works, those would be fiends, not gods. You have homebrewed your gods to work like fiends, but that's not the way D&D works. "Maybe, maybe, maybe." And yet, you dismiss other people who say "maybe it's actually this other way" if that way contradicts you. And it's not a question of "getting caught." It's a question of the religion that surrounds your faith changing, and changing you as a result. Would Loki be willing to "write a check he couldn't cash" if it meant that his religion changed and the god whose church he was trying to corrupt got merged into a single being, because the human worshipers came to conflate the two? Another difference. Gods are subject to the thoughts and minds of mortals. Fiends aren't. OK, show me where, canonically, fiends [I]care [/I]about worshipers. While they may [I]benefit [/I]from worshipers, when it comes down to it, they only care about the soul. That has been shown in D&D time and time again. And they can get souls in a variety of ways, to the point that having worshipers provides only a fraction of the souls they need or want. As I said before, it's icing, not cake. Nope, because if your destination after death relies on your belief, then being forced to convert against your will won't actually affect your beliefs, just your actions. It's probably why there actually [I]haven't [/I]been that many canonical holy wars or gods who demand conversions in D&D. In Eberron, it's unclear if those gods even exist. In every other setting gods die if they lose followers. Its why there's a bunch of god-corpses floating around in the Astral--and why those corpses can be resurrected with enough prayer. And Eberron is not actually connected to the Great Wheel and uses an entirely different afterlife model than other setting--all souls go to Dolorh (or however it's spelled), regardless of faith. There's no actual petitioners. [I]Or[/I] you can tell the story with both dragons and giants. And the story may very well be more interesting for including them both. No matter what you're trying to claim here, you are very definitely advocating for getting rid of either gods or fiends. Between telling me I'm doing it wrong for how I would determine what gods to use to you saying that using both of them may create a muddled story. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions are continuously showing that you think that people shouldn't use both. And also, having both fiends and gods in the setting doesn't mean I need to have them in the same story. I can run one adventure featuring Zuggtmoy and another one featuring Psylofir, and even those they have the same basic concept--fungi--the stories I tell with them would be completely different. Even if Psylofir were [I]evil[/I] instead of neutral, the stories would be different. Think about super hero comics for a moment. You can create a universe where all supers get their powers from a single source. I know there's been some universes like that. Or, you can create a universe where--like with Marvel and DC--you can have supers who were born with their powers, got them from or because they're aliens, built super-suits, trained until they had incredible skills, were exposed to or injured by something radioactive, got zapped by magic or blessed by gods, were genetically engineered or cybernetically enhanced, or got splashed with heavy water while being struck by lightning. You can tell equally good stories with [I]both [/I]of those types of super hero universes. Or you can tell equally crappy stories. Saying that having both fiends and gods in a game risks a muddled story is just blaming your tools. Gasp! You mean real-world mythology doesn't necessarily mesh with D&D's rules? So, [I]practically [/I]the same thing, then. And, since Theros is a MtG setting, it's going to rely on their rules. Sure. Which means you can have an archfiend and a god have incredibly different purposes, if you put your mind to it. Why not? Those "maybes" mattered for you up above. By homebrewing it, sure. Or by using a setting that isn't connected to the Great Wheel. At the time of Planescape's publishing, [I]every[/I] was part of the Great Wheel and used it. You can homebrew [I]anything.[/I] Much earlier, I said that I wasn't seeing much of a reason to have [I]any [/I]gods and you replied that no, there was definitely a use for cosmic powers. So "maybe" I can just ignore you and homebrew a setting with no gods at all (or simply use Dark Sun), or have a setting with only evil god(s) and fiends (for instance, Ravenloft*, or the d20 setting Midnight) and no good gods, and thus invalidate your claims. Once you bring in homebrew, anything is possible. So maybe stop going with "maybes". * Assuming the Dark Powers fit somewhere in the god/archthings continuum. The rules are: whatever you want in 5e, more distinct in earlier editions. But even in earlier editions they varied and contradicted each other, so pick what you want. Agreed. But this fails to make archfiends and evil gods redundant. There may not be anything you preventing you from telling the same story, but that's only because [I]you [/I]haven't come up with rules. Other people have. I have. In fact, I can come up with different rules for each setting I make, if I wanted to. But right now, you're literally saying that your imagination is failing [I]you [/I]in regards to telling different stories with gods and archfiends, or in even telling the difference between the two, and therefore, it's impossible for [I]anyone [/I]to do so. Who says it does? It's universal as of every setting published in 2e. You're also missing an important steps. A god can point to a petitioner and turn it into a devil or demon. An archfiend needs to put that same petitioner through the "cleansing" process to get the same result. In 2e, it took 11 days of hellfire to turn a larva into an imp or quasit. That would be automatic for a god. At most, it would require an action. An archfiend vs. archfiend battle wouldn't be a holy war by definition, since there are no holy beings (gods) involved. No, because archfiends are not cosmic forces in that matter. [/QUOTE]
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