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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8414688" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>If the different writers didn't need to consult each other, and came up with opposite rules... doesn't that imply that it didn't really matter and that they were fairly interchangeable? There are even gods who were also specifically Demon Lords, like Thasmudyan from "The Complete Book of Necromancers" from 1995.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And again, my only concern with this portion of the discussion is whether or not they can. Because maybe someone homebrewed a god in a world that does that for a Celestial Warlock pact. No reason that they can't, so it is a story we can possibly tell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, but that wasn't the original example, so maybe you should be more clear that you are altering the example. You are right, it doesn't make a lot of sense to impersonate another god to get worshipers, of course, you still absolutely could have a false face as a different diety to get worship if you happen to be an evil god of some terrible thing, not that hard to do I'd imagine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1) It isn't a moot point. A setting where the gods are distant the archfiends imprisoned is still a setting with gods and archfiends. </p><p></p><p>2) Nothing you are saying changes anything about the fact that I am including settings like Eberron in the discussion of "things it is possible to do within DnD" since it is a setting in DnD. </p><p></p><p>3) Um... yeah, so you realize that Helm has a genocide in Matizca right? I'm sure if we dug through the various settings with a fine toothed comb we'd find plenty of "good" beings that committed terrible acts. Dragonlance anyone? Eberron just made it a bit more explicit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no reason to show that it is bad. I have talked about how it can end up creating a muddled and confused story, which in my mind is fairly bad, but I don't need to prove it is bad, because I don't care if people think it is good or bad. I simply am pointing out that it is. </p><p></p><p>Why do I care that people are saying "No, you are wrong, this is the truth"? Well, because I don't think I'm wrong. Is it so strange that I'm responding to people who have a different perspective by trying to convince them of my side? Isn't that the point of discussing? I don't believe in just making a statement then abandoning the field. I defend my ideas. </p><p></p><p>As for the first part, why am I responding to your answers with the fact that they are redundant? Because you claimed you could tell a story with evil gods that was impossible to tell with Archfiends. So, if your evidence doesn't prove that, then I'm going to tell you that it doesn't. Why can't I accept people enforcing differences they made up? Because you are presenting those not as "here is something you could potentially do" but as "You are wrong that they are redundant, because I made up a reason that they aren't redundant" which doesn't make me wrong, it makes you having made-up facts that did not otherwise exist.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet there are clearly stories that are tied to one and not the other. Elves are not known for many of the same things Dwarves are. In most depictions of them they are incredibly different beings. </p><p></p><p>If you wanted to say that elves and dwarves are nearly indistinguishable from each other, I'd be interested in seeing your arguments, but just the fact that caves are natural and beautiful doesn't make them the same as living in a forest. And Elves are not really seen in the clan structures that dwarves have, which is a major driver of some dwarven stories.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, ignoring my change of the argument to try and avoid confusion to continue pounding on the point of confusion. Would you be happy if I said I must have obviously picked a bad example then? Because, actually, I do think that Talos and Umberlee both being in charge of all storms is redundant. Why do they both need that portfolio? </p><p></p><p>Does that mean that the character's are identical? No, but it does indicate that their jobs are redundant. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The "control all oozes everywhere" part. But hey, I literally changed the example because you hated the original example so much, so maybe instead of trying to compare the statblocks, we could focus on the changed example, since I made the mistake of trying to use real dnd lore for my example. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then how do you run Yeenoghu? You claim you run him differently than me, and I run him how the books say to, so how do you run him?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How would removing redundancies show people that they are redundant? Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive? </p><p></p><p>And, yes, "only gods can create clerics" is something that is not true. You can make it true for your world if you want, but that doesn't make it a true fact of the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8414688, member: 6801228"] If the different writers didn't need to consult each other, and came up with opposite rules... doesn't that imply that it didn't really matter and that they were fairly interchangeable? There are even gods who were also specifically Demon Lords, like Thasmudyan from "The Complete Book of Necromancers" from 1995. And again, my only concern with this portion of the discussion is whether or not they can. Because maybe someone homebrewed a god in a world that does that for a Celestial Warlock pact. No reason that they can't, so it is a story we can possibly tell. Okay, but that wasn't the original example, so maybe you should be more clear that you are altering the example. You are right, it doesn't make a lot of sense to impersonate another god to get worshipers, of course, you still absolutely could have a false face as a different diety to get worship if you happen to be an evil god of some terrible thing, not that hard to do I'd imagine. 1) It isn't a moot point. A setting where the gods are distant the archfiends imprisoned is still a setting with gods and archfiends. 2) Nothing you are saying changes anything about the fact that I am including settings like Eberron in the discussion of "things it is possible to do within DnD" since it is a setting in DnD. 3) Um... yeah, so you realize that Helm has a genocide in Matizca right? I'm sure if we dug through the various settings with a fine toothed comb we'd find plenty of "good" beings that committed terrible acts. Dragonlance anyone? Eberron just made it a bit more explicit. I have no reason to show that it is bad. I have talked about how it can end up creating a muddled and confused story, which in my mind is fairly bad, but I don't need to prove it is bad, because I don't care if people think it is good or bad. I simply am pointing out that it is. Why do I care that people are saying "No, you are wrong, this is the truth"? Well, because I don't think I'm wrong. Is it so strange that I'm responding to people who have a different perspective by trying to convince them of my side? Isn't that the point of discussing? I don't believe in just making a statement then abandoning the field. I defend my ideas. As for the first part, why am I responding to your answers with the fact that they are redundant? Because you claimed you could tell a story with evil gods that was impossible to tell with Archfiends. So, if your evidence doesn't prove that, then I'm going to tell you that it doesn't. Why can't I accept people enforcing differences they made up? Because you are presenting those not as "here is something you could potentially do" but as "You are wrong that they are redundant, because I made up a reason that they aren't redundant" which doesn't make me wrong, it makes you having made-up facts that did not otherwise exist. And yet there are clearly stories that are tied to one and not the other. Elves are not known for many of the same things Dwarves are. In most depictions of them they are incredibly different beings. If you wanted to say that elves and dwarves are nearly indistinguishable from each other, I'd be interested in seeing your arguments, but just the fact that caves are natural and beautiful doesn't make them the same as living in a forest. And Elves are not really seen in the clan structures that dwarves have, which is a major driver of some dwarven stories. So, ignoring my change of the argument to try and avoid confusion to continue pounding on the point of confusion. Would you be happy if I said I must have obviously picked a bad example then? Because, actually, I do think that Talos and Umberlee both being in charge of all storms is redundant. Why do they both need that portfolio? Does that mean that the character's are identical? No, but it does indicate that their jobs are redundant. The "control all oozes everywhere" part. But hey, I literally changed the example because you hated the original example so much, so maybe instead of trying to compare the statblocks, we could focus on the changed example, since I made the mistake of trying to use real dnd lore for my example. Then how do you run Yeenoghu? You claim you run him differently than me, and I run him how the books say to, so how do you run him? How would removing redundancies show people that they are redundant? Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive? And, yes, "only gods can create clerics" is something that is not true. You can make it true for your world if you want, but that doesn't make it a true fact of the game. [/QUOTE]
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