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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8415404" data-attributes="member: 6801228">And or he had two different titles, like Lolth, because you are an Archdevil if you have a certain rank in the Hells. Tiamat was the Archdevil of the 1st layer, but she was also a Goddess, and being an Archdevil seemed to be nothing more than a title bestowed on her.So, to play this out, if you have a being that is worshiped (all of the archdevils have cults that worship them) and can grant powers to those worshipers... wouldn't you call them a god? With no other information than that, they'd be a god because that is our understanding of what gods in DnD are, and being a god and an archdevil isn't impossible by any stretch of the imagination. We could then further imagine that Demon Lords is also a title, granted to beings that command a layer of the Abyss and are served by Demons."These things are different" doesn't really negate my point that you can tell different stories with DnD. Also, as to the worshipers, you did mention them, but the first sentence of the example was "Archfiends often try to pervert other religions (good, neutral, and evil ones alike), either making a mockery of the faith's beliefs or introducing fiendish influences." That doesn't have anything to do with getting worshipers to worship you instead of the god, as you can make a mockery of them just because. Personally, I don't see how making someone worship a good god in the wrong way means that they are now worshiping you in the right way, so I didn't think the worship conversion was really a serious part of the example. Which, again, led to confusion.I don't generally consider "genocide" a neutral act. More Lawful Evil.But, yes, that is my point. You say that Eberron's removal of alignment allows for otherwise "good" religions to do bad things, but two other settings which have those alignment restrictions did the exact same thing or worse (because they didn't acknowledge it) The Silver Flame genocide is a horrible tragedy of the history of Khorvaire, and the people acknowledge it. It isn't entirely a story about good people doing a terrible thing, but mainly about people with good intentions, in a hard situation, acting out of fear and ignorance and the harm that did. Yes, it was a terrible thing, but by not focusing on "good" or "evil" Baker was able to craft a compelling narrative about mistakes and scars.I think I have tried to demonstrate the problems, you decide to ignore the examples and ask me why I don't want to talk about the ways it goes right. Do I have a preference? Yes, I have never denied that. Am I trying to argue that my preference is the one and true righteous way? No. So, really, you have a choice. You can keep refusing to accept what I say, or you can accept that I'm not arguing what you think I'm arguing. At this point I've corrected you near a dozen times on this fact, but you keep insisting that you know my mind better than I do.And you claimed my premise was wrong, and you could provide stories that proved it wrong. So, I accepted your post under that premise, and you were unable to sway me. Then you complain that it wasn't fair because I didn't abandon my premise and just accept your evidence as compelling when it wasn't.I'm not very familiar with Elfquest, I was thinking it was something else when I googled it. But, looking over some of the cover art, I'm curious if the authors actually did combine elves and dwarves to a degree. Maybe some fey as well, since I can't tell if that is a wolf or a badger that is being ridden in some of that art. But, it seems that you do have some good points on being able to subsume dwarves under the title of elves. Can you do the reverse? Can you have dwarves known for their beauty and grace? Their dancing and skill with a bow? That is something I also have not seen, but maybe it does exist and they are more interchangeable than I first thought.I also like hyenas, and I go back and forth on gnolls as a tribal people and gnolls as fiends in flesh, because I like both concepts. But let us look how you would run him differently.Tiamat is a goddess. She also can't send avatars to the Prime without the use of mortal spellcasters summoning her. It was the entire plot of an adventure.Most DnD Dogma for gods is equally as scattered and vague. Also, there is no reason for this to be true of Yeenoghu's worship. He clearly has an influence and recognizable rituals. This wiki lays out multiple rituals, dogma, temples, ect <a href="https://www.succubus.net/wiki/Yeenoghu#Dogma" target="_blank">Yeenoghu - The Wiki of the Succubi - SuccuWiki</a>You seem to be working in reverse as well. You start from "he isn't a god" and then tell us how he doesn't have a structure to his religion (which is false, he has as much structure as other chaotic evil gods, which you can see in this wiki entry for <a href="https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Nerull#Dogma" target="_blank">Nerul </a>) But, if you start from the facts about his religion, you would come to the conclusion that he is a god.Doesn't happen with Devils either. And you additionally have no proof that his shrines do corrupt the area around them, or that evil god shrines don't. Unhallow is something that can apply to evil god shrines and temples, and could also have regional effects. I suppose this gets into an essence vs detail argument. What is the difference between a juice box and a can? Mostly that one is made of metal, but you could make a juice box out of metal, or a can out of plastic or cardboard. In essence they are the same thing, a receptable for drinking liquids and easily portable, and I would not say I am out of line saying that drinking juice from a juice box or drinking juice from a can really doesn't matter, they are fairly interchangeable. So, sure, you can find detail differences like "Bane doesn't live in Nessus" but those don't really disprove the larger point.And this doesn't highlight the problem for you at all? One of the literal only things that makes an evil god different is the statement "evil gods are the only source of evil clerics" but the moment we can show that isn't true, then that difference is gone. If Archfiends can also create clerics, then that cannot be a difference. This is like saying that the only difference between a cupcake and a muffin is that the muffin is bigger. The moment you bake a cupcake that is bigger, that is no longer a difference, even if people generally think of cupcakes as being smaller, and the rules of baking competitions and cookbooks allow for either one to be true, it can't be a real difference, because it only matters if you are using a particular paradigm of rules.</blockquote>

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