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The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="Faolyn" data-source="post: 8415506" data-attributes="member: 6915329"><p><em>Call </em>them a god, sure. Are they <em>actually </em>a god? Not necessarily. Archthings can give warlocks power--and archthings include <em>undead creatures.</em> There's no "arch-undead," so theoretically any old vampire or lich can give out power.</p><p></p><p>And, for Lolth and Thasmudyan, why would you assume that "archfiend" is nothing more than a title? Why not assume that those two have god-powers <em>and </em>archfiend-powers?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Neither do I, because I never said that at all.</p><p></p><p>Gloopy is the god of snails. He pretends to be Pistil, the goddess of flowers, even though snails and flowers are mortal enemies (this is a known proven fact). Eventually, enough people worship Gloopy-as-Pistil (in addition to, or instead of, his aspect as god of snails) to the point that he becomes the god of both snails <em>and </em>flowers. Which is great for Gloopy; he now has <em>two </em>parts to his portfolio! Well, other than that he's his own mortal enemy (maybe the dichotomy will make him go crazy), but details, details.</p><p></p><p>This also assumes that Gloopy doesn't become the god of flowers and <em>stop </em>being the god of snails. Which is less good for him. More of a sideways promotion.</p><p></p><p>Now imagine that Pistil is an actual god. If Gloopy pretends to be Pistil, then any energy a god gets from prayer is split between him and Pistil, because he's leeching off of her. Also, at some point, Pistil is going to notice, and flowers or not, she's going to be <em>pissed. </em>She's going to spray pollen <em>all up in his nose. </em>Maybe Pistil's boyfriend, Spike, the god of thorns, will beat Gloopy up for this and get himself a new snailhide jacket in the process. </p><p></p><p>But now imagine that Gloopy was careful and clever enough so that Pistil never noticed, or was never able to figure out he was the one who was leeching off her. He manages to steal her portfolio and Pistil dies from lack of faith, Gloopy is now the god of snails and flowers, and Spike is <em>his </em>boyfriend now.</p><p></p><p>Now <em>all the gods </em>have noticed this. One of their own weakening and dying? Of course they'd see it. And at least one of them is going to be angry at this affront--and is likely to be a <em>lot</em> more powerful than either Pistil or Spike are. Meaning that, as clever as Gloopy was in stealing the portfolio from another god, he was also <em>stupid</em> because he didn't realize there would be ramifications from gods more powerful than him.</p><p></p><p>See the problems here?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, which is bad writing on the part of those settings.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I accept that you believe that gods and archfiends are redundant with each other. I have always accepted that. What I <em>don't </em>accept is the fact that no matter what anyone says or does, you refuse to acknowledge that they have a point--which you can do without even changing your own beliefs on the matter. I don't accept that you have told me that I do gods wrong. I don't accept that you are telling me that having both gods and fiends is "too hard" and will make things "muddled." I don't accept that only having one of those things makes for better stories. I</p><p></p><p></p><p>You can read nearly all of the stories for free (legally) on the <a href="http://elfquest.com/read/digitalEQ.html" target="_blank">creators' website</a>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, why not? Beauty and grace are subjective, and I'm one of those people who want female dwarfs to have beards. Can dwarfs dance, sure? It's probably not going to be ballet, but they can dance just fine. A jig, a morrus dance, even the watusi (which also a type of cow, which was confusing when I decided to look it up). I'd bet they can even tap dance. They have the stamina for it. Dwarfs likely wouldn't use <em>bows</em> because of arm length, but crossbows, yeah. OK, crossbows aren't as "romantic" as a longbow, but hey.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I looked up Rise of Tiamat and it has this line in the introduction: "Calling upon ancient magic and a host of draconic allies, the Cult of the Dragon seeks to unleash Tiamat from her prison in the Nine Hells. By bringing the Queen of Dragons bodily into the world, the cult plans to scour away their foes and usher in a new age of draconic dominance."</p><p></p><p>So here we learn two things: that Tiamat is imprisoned (she's not in the Nine Hells willingly and can't willingly leave) and the cult wants to bring her "bodily" into the Prime. As in, not her avatar, but <em>her.</em> Can you see how this is a bit different than Yeenoghu being unable to send an avatar without mortal help.</p><p></p><p></p><p>He has as much structure <em>as I choose for there to be. </em>And starting from "he isn't a god" isn't working in reverse (and here you are again, telling me I'm doing it wrong). It's taking what we know--that's he's a demon prince--and working from there. You would have to ignore everything that says he's a demon prince, including the site you linked, to claim he's a god. </p><p></p><p>Literally the only reason to claim he's a god and work from there is if you believe that gods and archfiends are the same.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't need "proof." You asked me how I would run him. That's how, by saying that his shrines corrupt the area around them. I do <em>not </em>say that temples to gods alter their surroundings because then I can't imagine any temple being allowed within city walls--unless I wanted the city to be a theocracy with only a single religion in it. Which I could definitely do, but I'd rather not, because I dislike theocracies.</p><p></p><p>Why do I do it this way? Because fiends, regardless of type, are a destructive, cancerous force. Their presence on the Prime begins to erode it. Left unchecked, it would eventually break that Prime world into bits and suck it into the lower planes. Gods, even weak, evil gods, can control their world-building natures if they want to do. A god can live on a world for millennia and never affect it unless they chose to. A fiend can't. Fiends are, effectively, not housebroken, and they piddle corrosive evil all over the place. </p><p></p><p>I don't need "proof" of any of this. I don't need validation from the books. This is one of the ways I differentiate gods and fiends.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, because there is no problem. You're seeing a problem because, for some reason, you don't want to pick what option to take. You seem to want to have only one option available, instead of several. Too bad. There <em>is </em>more than one option, and that's a feature, not a bug. Pick the one you like.</p><p></p><p></p><p>FYI: the difference between a cupcake and a muffin is that cupcake batter is beaten longer to produce a lighter crumb and smoother texture. By beating the muffin batter less, it remains lumpier and grainier. Also, cupcakes (being cakes) generally rely on cake flour (or sifted AP flour) where muffins (being quick breads) use AP or self-rising flour, or even things like wheat flour or almond flour, and you can eat a muffin hot or cold whereas it would be really weird to eat a hot cupcake.</p><p></p><p>So there are, in fact, legitimate differences between cupcakes and muffins, just like there are legitimate differences between god and archthings. The only difference here is that bakers can't just decide that all cupcakes are muffins.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Faolyn, post: 8415506, member: 6915329"] [I]Call [/I]them a god, sure. Are they [I]actually [/I]a god? Not necessarily. Archthings can give warlocks power--and archthings include [I]undead creatures.[/I] There's no "arch-undead," so theoretically any old vampire or lich can give out power. And, for Lolth and Thasmudyan, why would you assume that "archfiend" is nothing more than a title? Why not assume that those two have god-powers [I]and [/I]archfiend-powers? Neither do I, because I never said that at all. Gloopy is the god of snails. He pretends to be Pistil, the goddess of flowers, even though snails and flowers are mortal enemies (this is a known proven fact). Eventually, enough people worship Gloopy-as-Pistil (in addition to, or instead of, his aspect as god of snails) to the point that he becomes the god of both snails [I]and [/I]flowers. Which is great for Gloopy; he now has [I]two [/I]parts to his portfolio! Well, other than that he's his own mortal enemy (maybe the dichotomy will make him go crazy), but details, details. This also assumes that Gloopy doesn't become the god of flowers and [I]stop [/I]being the god of snails. Which is less good for him. More of a sideways promotion. Now imagine that Pistil is an actual god. If Gloopy pretends to be Pistil, then any energy a god gets from prayer is split between him and Pistil, because he's leeching off of her. Also, at some point, Pistil is going to notice, and flowers or not, she's going to be [I]pissed. [/I]She's going to spray pollen [I]all up in his nose. [/I]Maybe Pistil's boyfriend, Spike, the god of thorns, will beat Gloopy up for this and get himself a new snailhide jacket in the process. But now imagine that Gloopy was careful and clever enough so that Pistil never noticed, or was never able to figure out he was the one who was leeching off her. He manages to steal her portfolio and Pistil dies from lack of faith, Gloopy is now the god of snails and flowers, and Spike is [I]his [/I]boyfriend now. Now [I]all the gods [/I]have noticed this. One of their own weakening and dying? Of course they'd see it. And at least one of them is going to be angry at this affront--and is likely to be a [I]lot[/I] more powerful than either Pistil or Spike are. Meaning that, as clever as Gloopy was in stealing the portfolio from another god, he was also [I]stupid[/I] because he didn't realize there would be ramifications from gods more powerful than him. See the problems here? Right, which is bad writing on the part of those settings. I accept that you believe that gods and archfiends are redundant with each other. I have always accepted that. What I [I]don't [/I]accept is the fact that no matter what anyone says or does, you refuse to acknowledge that they have a point--which you can do without even changing your own beliefs on the matter. I don't accept that you have told me that I do gods wrong. I don't accept that you are telling me that having both gods and fiends is "too hard" and will make things "muddled." I don't accept that only having one of those things makes for better stories. I You can read nearly all of the stories for free (legally) on the [URL='http://elfquest.com/read/digitalEQ.html']creators' website[/URL]. Sure, why not? Beauty and grace are subjective, and I'm one of those people who want female dwarfs to have beards. Can dwarfs dance, sure? It's probably not going to be ballet, but they can dance just fine. A jig, a morrus dance, even the watusi (which also a type of cow, which was confusing when I decided to look it up). I'd bet they can even tap dance. They have the stamina for it. Dwarfs likely wouldn't use [I]bows[/I] because of arm length, but crossbows, yeah. OK, crossbows aren't as "romantic" as a longbow, but hey. I looked up Rise of Tiamat and it has this line in the introduction: "Calling upon ancient magic and a host of draconic allies, the Cult of the Dragon seeks to unleash Tiamat from her prison in the Nine Hells. By bringing the Queen of Dragons bodily into the world, the cult plans to scour away their foes and usher in a new age of draconic dominance." So here we learn two things: that Tiamat is imprisoned (she's not in the Nine Hells willingly and can't willingly leave) and the cult wants to bring her "bodily" into the Prime. As in, not her avatar, but [I]her.[/I] Can you see how this is a bit different than Yeenoghu being unable to send an avatar without mortal help. He has as much structure [I]as I choose for there to be. [/I]And starting from "he isn't a god" isn't working in reverse (and here you are again, telling me I'm doing it wrong). It's taking what we know--that's he's a demon prince--and working from there. You would have to ignore everything that says he's a demon prince, including the site you linked, to claim he's a god. Literally the only reason to claim he's a god and work from there is if you believe that gods and archfiends are the same. I don't need "proof." You asked me how I would run him. That's how, by saying that his shrines corrupt the area around them. I do [I]not [/I]say that temples to gods alter their surroundings because then I can't imagine any temple being allowed within city walls--unless I wanted the city to be a theocracy with only a single religion in it. Which I could definitely do, but I'd rather not, because I dislike theocracies. Why do I do it this way? Because fiends, regardless of type, are a destructive, cancerous force. Their presence on the Prime begins to erode it. Left unchecked, it would eventually break that Prime world into bits and suck it into the lower planes. Gods, even weak, evil gods, can control their world-building natures if they want to do. A god can live on a world for millennia and never affect it unless they chose to. A fiend can't. Fiends are, effectively, not housebroken, and they piddle corrosive evil all over the place. I don't need "proof" of any of this. I don't need validation from the books. This is one of the ways I differentiate gods and fiends. No, because there is no problem. You're seeing a problem because, for some reason, you don't want to pick what option to take. You seem to want to have only one option available, instead of several. Too bad. There [I]is [/I]more than one option, and that's a feature, not a bug. Pick the one you like. FYI: the difference between a cupcake and a muffin is that cupcake batter is beaten longer to produce a lighter crumb and smoother texture. By beating the muffin batter less, it remains lumpier and grainier. Also, cupcakes (being cakes) generally rely on cake flour (or sifted AP flour) where muffins (being quick breads) use AP or self-rising flour, or even things like wheat flour or almond flour, and you can eat a muffin hot or cold whereas it would be really weird to eat a hot cupcake. So there are, in fact, legitimate differences between cupcakes and muffins, just like there are legitimate differences between god and archthings. The only difference here is that bakers can't just decide that all cupcakes are muffins. [/QUOTE]
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