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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8418471" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I have never seen anything saying Orcus or Demogorgon are gods, so I have no idea where you are suddenly pulling this from. Would you mind citing a source for this?And actually, you HAVEN’T proven that demigods incapable of granting spells are in the Appendix B. You have proven that “quasi-divine beings” exist in Appendix B. Which could easily be the elven ancestors from the Undying Court, and not the beings like Iuz that are listed as gods, with spell granting domains.You also seemingly don’t care whether or not you can prove that a god is a god, because I gave you five gods, asked for the exact same evidence, and you shrug emoji’d and said you don’t care to provide that evidence because you proved something unrelated. So, if you can’t even provide evidence for gods that match the level of evidence you are demanding for Demon Lords like Yeenoghu, perhaps your demands are a bit unreasonable.Finally, omens that guide the gnolls are answering prayers for guidance. Gnolls use rituals such as divining in the entrails of their victims, and that is exactly what a prayer is, isn’t it? Asking for and receiving guidance from their god? I don’t see how the fact that they never statted up a gnoll cleric beyond the cult fanatic (which you still refuse to acknowledge because it doesn’t explicitly say Yeenoghu in the general write up for a general NPC) ends up meaning that Yeenoghu doesn’t grant gnolls magical powers, when there are multiple explicitly magical abilities they do have. All of which do come from Yeenoghu.1) Yes, a sourcebook for Greyhawk claimed that people began worshiping Iuz as a full god. If you won’t even believe authorial point of views, and instead want to say “well, the writers SAY they started worshiping them, but I who didn’t write for the setting know better” then no evidence I ever provide would be good enough for you.2) Yes, I am aware they were worshiping him as an ascended god when in reality he was trapped. How does him being trapped mean that they weren’t worshiping him as an ascended god? If I said “and all the people marched to the castle to free the princess, but in reality she was in the barn hiding” that doesn’t mean the people didn’t march to the castle, it just means they were wrong about where the Princess was.3) But you didn’t become a demigod from faith alone did you? Other people needed to worship you. So, Zagyg captured a demigod named Iuz, meaning that he had people worshiping him in his empire, enough to be a demigod. Then, for the next 65 years his worship GREW because people thought he has ascended to a full-god. It literally says this, so I don’t understand how you can say that this is wrong.And who splintered to form the Horned Society? Was it the common everyday people? No. It was “some of his more opportunistic followers and a few of his fiends”Well, the literal demons probably weren’t worshiping him as a god anyways, being Demons and all, so he only lost “some of his more opportunistic followers”. So, a few vizier or lieutenant level people who knew he was gone struck out. Meanwhile, the majority of the population carried on, and their worship of him increased, since they believed he was now an ascended full god. Also, there was only ONE splinter group, the Horned Society. Not multiple. One.And worshipers and priests of gods that can’t grant spells. In fact, it is literally just “pious person background” which since this doesn’t disprove the existence of clerics of gods, I don’t see how this disproves the existence of clerics of other forces.But the Red Knight is his Exarch, the point of her is to intercede and deal with part of his portfolio. Answer prayers and grant spells. But she can’t do that if she is a demigod, so for her to be an exarch who is receiving prayers on behalf of Torm, then she either must be a lesser diety (allowing her to hear and answer prayers) or, like you said “Tempus probably does it, since she's his Exarch.” Which would be Tempus taking the unnecessary step, as you call it.So, which is it? Are you right that it is an unnecessary step and Tempus just listens to and answers the prayers, or are you right and Tempus probably gathers the prayers to give to the Red Knight to give to Tempus? Because as long as she is a Demigod, she can’t hear and answer prayers on her own.</blockquote>

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