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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8437957" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Many of the prices I used were from the DMG and the Adventurer's league official numbers as well. But, you can't just declare that the prices are different than the source material because player's don't barter. Besides, if you can just decide prices are lower, I can just decide that they are higher. We need to use the official materials to have a discussion at all, instead of just a game of calvinball.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you want the crown to shell out 6,000 gold in materials for a few single use items, so that the wizard can pay his 9,000 in taxes, meaning they only make a profit of 3,000 gp in value... again for single use explosive death for petty pickpockets and drunks. </p><p></p><p>This is INCREDIBLY poor management of resources.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you aren't actually paying attention to WHY I mentioned the knights. You said that the wizard was doing this magic to pay his taxes. This was your claim. I am merely pointing out that if you are right, then using some basic numbers and looking at a reasonable measure of importance in terms of knights, the wizard is likely ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST AND MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE KINGDOM. You would essentially be having the King's Uncle going to Mudville to set a trap for a pickpocket. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, if you are shifting your argument, because you find your original argument to be untenable, then it would be polite of you to say so, to eliminate confusion.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Extreme sudden cold like what is caused by a spell could very easily cause thermal contraction and shatter stone. </p><p></p><p>Also, I double checked the DMG, stone walls are not listed with "immunity to cold". Yes, it does say to use your best judgement, but like I mentioned, thermal contraction can shatter stone. It can even more easily shatter steel that has been buried in stone, you know, like the bars of the cell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Note that I continued talking about wizards, the original example, so I didn't count clerics. Yes, if you decide to change it from a wizard to a cleric, then you may be able to have necrotic damage. Thinking about it though, how many taxes did the church pay in medieval times? Oh right, they tried to pay as few taxes as humanly possible. And considering a 5th level cleric can raise a dead knight saving the kingdom thousands of gold... I think they'd prioritize healing and raising the dead for their taxes instead of trapping cells for pickpockets. </p><p></p><p>I could have assumed that instead of a 5th level wizard we had an 8th level wizard who casts two fourth level spells which would cost them ~750 gp instead of the 550. I figured not doing so was a kindness.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, more magic is always an answer. It just increases the cost of this entire endeavor though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I'm thinking "pickpockets and drunks aren't spies". This is a level of paranoia and extremism that I find utterly bizarre.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely free, except for the thousands of gold spent on materials. Again, not for the most important cells of the kingdom, not for the king's maximum security prison, but for every village in the entire region. </p><p></p><p>Don't you know that the entire point of a maximum security prison is that they are MORE secure than the local village prison? They don't get the royal academy of wizards securing their cells. They are lucky to have stone and steel to make an actual jail cell. </p><p></p><p>Though I suppose they could use stone shape and wall of stone to make every building in the kingdom from stone. Wizards work for free after all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the rules for 5e are more relevant for talking about a 5e game. If you were playing a 1e game, then that BECMI table might be more relevant, but that isn't the case.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8437957, member: 6801228"] Many of the prices I used were from the DMG and the Adventurer's league official numbers as well. But, you can't just declare that the prices are different than the source material because player's don't barter. Besides, if you can just decide prices are lower, I can just decide that they are higher. We need to use the official materials to have a discussion at all, instead of just a game of calvinball. So, you want the crown to shell out 6,000 gold in materials for a few single use items, so that the wizard can pay his 9,000 in taxes, meaning they only make a profit of 3,000 gp in value... again for single use explosive death for petty pickpockets and drunks. This is INCREDIBLY poor management of resources. So, you aren't actually paying attention to WHY I mentioned the knights. You said that the wizard was doing this magic to pay his taxes. This was your claim. I am merely pointing out that if you are right, then using some basic numbers and looking at a reasonable measure of importance in terms of knights, the wizard is likely ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST AND MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE KINGDOM. You would essentially be having the King's Uncle going to Mudville to set a trap for a pickpocket. Now, if you are shifting your argument, because you find your original argument to be untenable, then it would be polite of you to say so, to eliminate confusion. Extreme sudden cold like what is caused by a spell could very easily cause thermal contraction and shatter stone. Also, I double checked the DMG, stone walls are not listed with "immunity to cold". Yes, it does say to use your best judgement, but like I mentioned, thermal contraction can shatter stone. It can even more easily shatter steel that has been buried in stone, you know, like the bars of the cell. Note that I continued talking about wizards, the original example, so I didn't count clerics. Yes, if you decide to change it from a wizard to a cleric, then you may be able to have necrotic damage. Thinking about it though, how many taxes did the church pay in medieval times? Oh right, they tried to pay as few taxes as humanly possible. And considering a 5th level cleric can raise a dead knight saving the kingdom thousands of gold... I think they'd prioritize healing and raising the dead for their taxes instead of trapping cells for pickpockets. I could have assumed that instead of a 5th level wizard we had an 8th level wizard who casts two fourth level spells which would cost them ~750 gp instead of the 550. I figured not doing so was a kindness. Sure, more magic is always an answer. It just increases the cost of this entire endeavor though. No, I'm thinking "pickpockets and drunks aren't spies". This is a level of paranoia and extremism that I find utterly bizarre. Absolutely free, except for the thousands of gold spent on materials. Again, not for the most important cells of the kingdom, not for the king's maximum security prison, but for every village in the entire region. Don't you know that the entire point of a maximum security prison is that they are MORE secure than the local village prison? They don't get the royal academy of wizards securing their cells. They are lucky to have stone and steel to make an actual jail cell. Though I suppose they could use stone shape and wall of stone to make every building in the kingdom from stone. Wizards work for free after all. I think the rules for 5e are more relevant for talking about a 5e game. If you were playing a 1e game, then that BECMI table might be more relevant, but that isn't the case. [/QUOTE]
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