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<blockquote data-quote="kitsune9" data-source="post: 4875929" data-attributes="member: 18507"><p>I'll stick on the 3.0 and later editions as I agree that fast and loose can be better at earlier editions than in the later ones. The problem with fast and loose that I have run into time and time again is the lack of consistency. I wouldn't have a problem with DM's who run a game fast and loose, but it often becomes a consistency issue that runs afoul of fairness in a game. This is gets my goat. </p><p></p><p>For the polearm example, if the DM had said as a rule that all polearms go first, that's cool with me, so if I have a fighter who has a polearm, I know I'm going first and if I don't, I hope to go a close second or if I got a dagger, then I know I'm going dead last. But if one battle the pole arm folks go first, then the next battle the halfling with the dagger goes first, and then the next battle monsters just go first, and the next battle after that the characters go first, it gets frustrating.</p><p></p><p>I'll give another example that I gave in another thread (the no-goes thread). I went to a convention and saw one of my close friends. He told me about his old buddy that he hadn't seen in years and wanted me to register for his 3.0 D&D game and show some support, so we did. </p><p></p><p>At the beginning of the game, the DM gives us the fast and loose talk in that he read the rules, but wanted to streamline the play. After a while, it was quite evident that he either didn't read the rules or truly didn't care about them at all. If the rules are thrown away to some degree, then I've stopped playing D&D. I'm playing a fantasy version of Make Believe with some dice and character sheets thrown in, because the rules hold no meaning.</p><p></p><p>Anyways, the DM ran haphazard encounters as he was gaming on the fly, there was no plot other than we met at a tavern to go explore some dungeon which at the end was Orcus and we needed to be saved by the DM's PetNPC. End of Game. Yay.... </p><p></p><p>We rolled for initiative, but the DM didn't. Monsters went first. Just the way it was. When the DM decided combat was over, combat was over, right in the middle of one player's turn. We fell into a trap with no Spot check, no reflex save, nothing. The rogue's statement of "I'm looking for traps" was pointless, because the DM nor the player rolled for searching for traps. Soon after three hours of this, we no longer made statements of "I attack the orc!" or "I search the room for secret doors.", but we switched to "Can I attack the orc?" or "Can I search the room for secret doors?" Nothing was consistent or made sense and our confidence in being able to make reasonable assumptions that D&D provides to us has been taken away. This also has the same kind of behavior that one asks when being taught a new boardgame--"Can I do this?", "Can I do that?", "Can I...?". Once the fast and loose DM retains all the power of actions and logic, then the players need to get "clearance" before they can proceed.</p><p></p><p>However, if one looked at it from the DM's point-of-view, it was a cool story. The characters are mercs who think they've seen it all (we're 5th level after all!). There's a dungeon infested with some orcs, go clear it out. The characters are in for the fight of their lives when they discover that they are not up against just any orcs, but special orcs devoted to Orcus and Orcus shows up! The DM's pet NPC, some Elminster like great archmage shows up and saves the characters! The problem with this was that only the DM could see the story from his point-of-view and his style of fast and loose made this an exercise in frustration for the players and clouded their view of the game in general.</p><p></p><p>In my experience with DM's who like fast and loose translates into having never read the rules or even skimmed the books. Again, this can be frustrating for players who have read the rules or frequently play in regimented campaigns like Living Greyhawk or Mark of Heroes from the RPGA and then play in a home campaign where the players just follow the logic of the DM and hope for the best.</p><p></p><p>I usually wouldn't have too much of a problem with these types except where I get burned the most is at conventions where I've paid money to play a game and the DM shows up disorganized, gives us the "fast and loose" spiel and the next four hours is just sitting and listening to him give out his narrative of what he thinks is a great and awesome adventure and allowing me to roll some dice and participate every once in a while. Just like the one I described above.</p><p></p><p>Lastly, don't take this as a criticism you guys <em><strong>personally </strong></em>who play this way. Everyone has their own style and play and really there is no right or wrong as long as you and your players are having fun. If you guys are having fun, that's awesome. But for me....I'd probably would go crazy.</p><p></p><p>Sorry for the quasi-rant, but fast and loose gets my goat and too many bad memories. I know people will disagree with me, which I am cool with that if this style is what works for your gaming group and everyone enjoys it. Having fun at the game is what I think to be the most important aspect of all, regardless of style.</p><p></p><p>Happy Gaming!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kitsune9, post: 4875929, member: 18507"] I'll stick on the 3.0 and later editions as I agree that fast and loose can be better at earlier editions than in the later ones. The problem with fast and loose that I have run into time and time again is the lack of consistency. I wouldn't have a problem with DM's who run a game fast and loose, but it often becomes a consistency issue that runs afoul of fairness in a game. This is gets my goat. For the polearm example, if the DM had said as a rule that all polearms go first, that's cool with me, so if I have a fighter who has a polearm, I know I'm going first and if I don't, I hope to go a close second or if I got a dagger, then I know I'm going dead last. But if one battle the pole arm folks go first, then the next battle the halfling with the dagger goes first, and then the next battle monsters just go first, and the next battle after that the characters go first, it gets frustrating. I'll give another example that I gave in another thread (the no-goes thread). I went to a convention and saw one of my close friends. He told me about his old buddy that he hadn't seen in years and wanted me to register for his 3.0 D&D game and show some support, so we did. At the beginning of the game, the DM gives us the fast and loose talk in that he read the rules, but wanted to streamline the play. After a while, it was quite evident that he either didn't read the rules or truly didn't care about them at all. If the rules are thrown away to some degree, then I've stopped playing D&D. I'm playing a fantasy version of Make Believe with some dice and character sheets thrown in, because the rules hold no meaning. Anyways, the DM ran haphazard encounters as he was gaming on the fly, there was no plot other than we met at a tavern to go explore some dungeon which at the end was Orcus and we needed to be saved by the DM's PetNPC. End of Game. Yay.... We rolled for initiative, but the DM didn't. Monsters went first. Just the way it was. When the DM decided combat was over, combat was over, right in the middle of one player's turn. We fell into a trap with no Spot check, no reflex save, nothing. The rogue's statement of "I'm looking for traps" was pointless, because the DM nor the player rolled for searching for traps. Soon after three hours of this, we no longer made statements of "I attack the orc!" or "I search the room for secret doors.", but we switched to "Can I attack the orc?" or "Can I search the room for secret doors?" Nothing was consistent or made sense and our confidence in being able to make reasonable assumptions that D&D provides to us has been taken away. This also has the same kind of behavior that one asks when being taught a new boardgame--"Can I do this?", "Can I do that?", "Can I...?". Once the fast and loose DM retains all the power of actions and logic, then the players need to get "clearance" before they can proceed. However, if one looked at it from the DM's point-of-view, it was a cool story. The characters are mercs who think they've seen it all (we're 5th level after all!). There's a dungeon infested with some orcs, go clear it out. The characters are in for the fight of their lives when they discover that they are not up against just any orcs, but special orcs devoted to Orcus and Orcus shows up! The DM's pet NPC, some Elminster like great archmage shows up and saves the characters! The problem with this was that only the DM could see the story from his point-of-view and his style of fast and loose made this an exercise in frustration for the players and clouded their view of the game in general. In my experience with DM's who like fast and loose translates into having never read the rules or even skimmed the books. Again, this can be frustrating for players who have read the rules or frequently play in regimented campaigns like Living Greyhawk or Mark of Heroes from the RPGA and then play in a home campaign where the players just follow the logic of the DM and hope for the best. I usually wouldn't have too much of a problem with these types except where I get burned the most is at conventions where I've paid money to play a game and the DM shows up disorganized, gives us the "fast and loose" spiel and the next four hours is just sitting and listening to him give out his narrative of what he thinks is a great and awesome adventure and allowing me to roll some dice and participate every once in a while. Just like the one I described above. Lastly, don't take this as a criticism you guys [I][B]personally [/B][/I]who play this way. Everyone has their own style and play and really there is no right or wrong as long as you and your players are having fun. If you guys are having fun, that's awesome. But for me....I'd probably would go crazy. Sorry for the quasi-rant, but fast and loose gets my goat and too many bad memories. I know people will disagree with me, which I am cool with that if this style is what works for your gaming group and everyone enjoys it. Having fun at the game is what I think to be the most important aspect of all, regardless of style. Happy Gaming! [/QUOTE]
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