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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4878382" data-attributes="member: 5143"><p>The thing is, that if you trust your DM, you are willing to put up with a lot that you wouldn't otherwise. Also, if the players have a similar mindset, you run into less misunderstanding.</p><p></p><p>However, the people I played with all had differing opinions on what was "common sense". For example:</p><p></p><p>-The DM feels that someone can jump at most 5 feet with a running start without special training. This is "common sense" and the idea that any of the PCs could jump over a 20 ft pit is incomprehensible. Meanwhile, one player knows that the world record in the Long Jump is 29 feet and his character has 19 strength, which is higher than any human in existence(in 1e/2e) so it is "common sense" that he should be able to make a 20 ft jump with no problem at all, since it is well below his maximum jump distance. The rules are silent on exactly how far you can jump.</p><p></p><p>-The DM feels that the advantage you have due to having a polearm is complete. You should always go first when wielding one. A player feels that he has seen fast and nimble characters in movies roll underneath long reach weapons and punch people without the polearm wielders getting in an attack at all and just being so fast that other people didn't get a chance to react. It make no sense to him at all that he shouldn't at least get a chance to go first.</p><p></p><p>-A house catches on fire. There are people trapped inside. No one in the group(DM and players both) have no real world experience with burning buildings. Their only reference is movies where fire moves at the speed of plot. The DM is imagining a scene from a movie where a house burned down and collapsed in about a minute from the time it caught on fire. One of the players is imagining a scene in a movie where people were inside a burning building waiting for a rescue for 3 hours. The rules don't say how quickly fire burns down a house.</p><p></p><p>-The DM feels that there is no way to kill a creature who is 30 feet tall with a dagger. He refuses to allow daggers to do damage but Greatswords and Spears can do damage normally. A player has the idea that his character is a badass who wields daggers to extremely deadly effect. He can stick them deep into leg muscles enough to cripple even a 30 ft tall creature and can likely cut a vein that will cause a giant to bleed to death no problem.</p><p></p><p>and so on, and so on....</p><p></p><p>Now, imagine you are the player in this game and ALL of the above situations happen to you in the same session. And an equal number of issues come up every session you play in.</p><p></p><p>This doesn't mean that the DM is suddenly completely incompetent or evil or something. In fact, it's likely that people on this board will agree with the DM in some of these situations and the player in others.</p><p></p><p>Still, from the point of view of the player, the DM is an idiot. He keeps making OBVIOUSLY wrong rulings(from his point of view) with no common sense at all. He feels picked on because the DMs rulings are always preventing him from doing what he wants to do.</p><p></p><p>In our group each of those situations would(and has) caused an argument that lasted a good 20-30 minutes each time. The most heated of them escalated into an entire session of arguing a DM ruling that players felt strongly against.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, with a stong ruleset, all of these problems are averted at once. If the rules say exactly how far you can jump, how initiative works, how fast fire spreads, and how damage from weapons works...AND discourages changing the rules based on "common sense" then both players get a chance to agree to the social contract that says: "Regardless of our own personal beliefs on what makes sense, we agree to use the rules instead."</p><p></p><p>In which case, the above session is easily resolved:</p><p></p><p>-You want to jump? Make a jump check? You get over 20? You make it.</p><p></p><p>-Roll for initiative. We'll act in the order it says</p><p></p><p>-It takes 10 minutes for the house to burn down based on the rules written here. That's about how long you have to rescue the people inside.</p><p></p><p>-According to the rules, all weapons do damage to all creatures. Make and attack roll and roll for damage.</p><p></p><p>Also, before some people point out that 1e had rules for initiative and 3e or 4e has no rules for how fast fire burns down a house. I am aware. I'm arguing generically about less rules vs more rules not about a specific edition.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 4878382, member: 5143"] The thing is, that if you trust your DM, you are willing to put up with a lot that you wouldn't otherwise. Also, if the players have a similar mindset, you run into less misunderstanding. However, the people I played with all had differing opinions on what was "common sense". For example: -The DM feels that someone can jump at most 5 feet with a running start without special training. This is "common sense" and the idea that any of the PCs could jump over a 20 ft pit is incomprehensible. Meanwhile, one player knows that the world record in the Long Jump is 29 feet and his character has 19 strength, which is higher than any human in existence(in 1e/2e) so it is "common sense" that he should be able to make a 20 ft jump with no problem at all, since it is well below his maximum jump distance. The rules are silent on exactly how far you can jump. -The DM feels that the advantage you have due to having a polearm is complete. You should always go first when wielding one. A player feels that he has seen fast and nimble characters in movies roll underneath long reach weapons and punch people without the polearm wielders getting in an attack at all and just being so fast that other people didn't get a chance to react. It make no sense to him at all that he shouldn't at least get a chance to go first. -A house catches on fire. There are people trapped inside. No one in the group(DM and players both) have no real world experience with burning buildings. Their only reference is movies where fire moves at the speed of plot. The DM is imagining a scene from a movie where a house burned down and collapsed in about a minute from the time it caught on fire. One of the players is imagining a scene in a movie where people were inside a burning building waiting for a rescue for 3 hours. The rules don't say how quickly fire burns down a house. -The DM feels that there is no way to kill a creature who is 30 feet tall with a dagger. He refuses to allow daggers to do damage but Greatswords and Spears can do damage normally. A player has the idea that his character is a badass who wields daggers to extremely deadly effect. He can stick them deep into leg muscles enough to cripple even a 30 ft tall creature and can likely cut a vein that will cause a giant to bleed to death no problem. and so on, and so on.... Now, imagine you are the player in this game and ALL of the above situations happen to you in the same session. And an equal number of issues come up every session you play in. This doesn't mean that the DM is suddenly completely incompetent or evil or something. In fact, it's likely that people on this board will agree with the DM in some of these situations and the player in others. Still, from the point of view of the player, the DM is an idiot. He keeps making OBVIOUSLY wrong rulings(from his point of view) with no common sense at all. He feels picked on because the DMs rulings are always preventing him from doing what he wants to do. In our group each of those situations would(and has) caused an argument that lasted a good 20-30 minutes each time. The most heated of them escalated into an entire session of arguing a DM ruling that players felt strongly against. On the other hand, with a stong ruleset, all of these problems are averted at once. If the rules say exactly how far you can jump, how initiative works, how fast fire spreads, and how damage from weapons works...AND discourages changing the rules based on "common sense" then both players get a chance to agree to the social contract that says: "Regardless of our own personal beliefs on what makes sense, we agree to use the rules instead." In which case, the above session is easily resolved: -You want to jump? Make a jump check? You get over 20? You make it. -Roll for initiative. We'll act in the order it says -It takes 10 minutes for the house to burn down based on the rules written here. That's about how long you have to rescue the people inside. -According to the rules, all weapons do damage to all creatures. Make and attack roll and roll for damage. Also, before some people point out that 1e had rules for initiative and 3e or 4e has no rules for how fast fire burns down a house. I am aware. I'm arguing generically about less rules vs more rules not about a specific edition. [/QUOTE]
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