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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Obryn" data-source="post: 4609776" data-attributes="member: 11821">You know, it's funny, but this is exactly the complaint I've heard about CRs and ELs on other forae. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I consider 4e's task levels and monster levels about the same as 3e's CRs.  Both are just tools to establish a level of difficulty for a given task, and a DM can freely ignore them at will.  3e's CR/EL, and 4e's Encounter Guidelines, aren't rules in the same sense that, say, Opportunity Attacks are.  They're just math, done in advance, and thrown onto a table.Well, first off, if you check the PHB, the tables are very, very similar to 3e's tables.  If you look under the Balance sub-heading of Acrobatics, you'll find set DCs for various tasks, which don't depend on a PC's level at all.  "Narrow or Unstable Surface: DC 20"I'm going to guess, though, that your discussion was about the various DCs listed in the DMG, page 42.  Arbitrarily setting DCs based on the PCs' level is certainly one way to read the 4e DC table, but I don't know that it's the best one.Not all challenges are set for the PCs' level.  This should be obvious, just like not all 3e encounters are within 2-3 of the PCs' level.  What the DC table helps with, for me, is when I ask, "What level PC could reasonably expect to do this?"  So, for your somewhat icy floor, it'd be silly to put an arbitrarily high DC on it for high-level characters.Now, on the other hand, if your high-level characters are trying to cross a magically-frozen pond in the Winter Court of the Feywild, a high DC is absolutely appropriate.  That's a task which high-level characters would do, and the pond is bound to be supernaturally slippery.  The DC table helps out a lot here, if you don't want to just wing it.It's still a two-step process, and you can still wing it.  If you aren't comfortable winging it, there's two different tables to help - one in the skill description, and one in the DMG.  But neither table should be treated as mandatory.-O</blockquote>

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