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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5056991" data-attributes="member: 4937">I bring it up because I consider it the most central aspect of the discussion of hidden treasure.  I have encountered both at the game table and here on the boards a species of player which considers it entirely unfair for treasure to be hidden by the DM because, if treasure might not be found, then it implies that the player might not have his expected wealth by level.  And, if the DM doesn't ensure that the player has his expected wealth by level that the DM is in violation of everything it means to be a good DM.  The implication is that once a challenge is disposed of, the DM ought to without prompting, recite to the players a detailed description of the treasure earned as a result of this encounter.  If the DM tries to hide the treasure, or if the DM doesn't report the value of the treasure, the DM is violating the rules of the game.  In other words, there is according to these players only one true way to play, and DM's that hide treasure are bad people or at least just don't understand how to play.I consider that to be a severe challenge to the game of D&D.  I think that there is a creeping 3e and 4e assumption that a fully fungible treasure is just dropped in the players lap when the monster is killed and that this treasure, if it isn't exactly what the player wanted, can be easily redeemed for exactly what the player did want once they return to the nearest village.  Moreover, there is a since of entitlement, like the treasure was a automatically deposited paycheck that the DM is contractually obligated to provide to the players in a way that they find convienent and that anything else is not fun.As both a player and a DM acustomed to an earlier style of play, I find this rather unsatisfying and strongly resist this culture taking over and completely replacing the game that I know.I'm not entirely sure what this means.  I think I have some sympathy for it, but not knowing where you draw the line there, I'm not sure how much I agree.   So rather than try mindreading, I'll just give my opinion coming from the opposite direction.1) The DM should provide the resources the players need to overcome the problems.  Generally speaking, its better to err on the side of providing too many resources on the assumption that the players will not behave in an optimal manner, and unlike a computer game, the game tends to play better when you don't have to push 'restart' very often.2) The DM should craft problems which are suitable to the skill level of his players, always pushing towards more skillful and creative play, but never pushing so hard as to frustrate the players.  This means that lower skill players shouldn't be given very difficult problems.  On the other hand, eventually any DM worth his pizza will get such a skillful set of players, the sort that chew tournament modules up and spit them out as too easy, that he'll have difficulty challenging them because they are pushing him so hard.3) The DM should encourage a pacing which doesn't bore the players.  The environment should provide suitable clues to an attentive and skillful player as to when slowing the pacing of their play will be rewarded, and when a slow pace will just slow things down.  That means that when a trap is placed, it ought to make sense for the situation.  Lethal death traps shouldn't show up in random places in the dungeon.  The players should be able to tell whether this is a situation where traps make sense and so caution is warranted, or when traps don't really make sense and so a faster pace of play isn't likely to cause undo difficulty.  The players should be able to evaluate what degree of search is warranted, and there should be clues to help attentive players guess what things are worth looking at closely.  I imagine in my head two parties comparing notes (assuming equal skill by the DM) going into a particular dungeon:Party #1: "That dungeon sucked."Party #2: "Really? We had a blast."Party #1: "The DM made us pixel bitch to find all the treasure."Party #2: "Really, the gold chalice and that chest full of coins wasn't too hard to find?"Party #1: "Yeah, but we had to eventually resort to tearing down the walls and shredding the furniture to find the silver and saphirre necklace.  It took an hour play time and a whole day of game time."Party #2: "Oh, well we didn't find that."Party #1: "And the bone scroll case containing the rope trick scroll was a total pixel bitch."Party #2: "Oh, we didn't find that either."Party #1: "And we had to spend four days game time looting the dungeon of everything we could strip out of it before we even realized that the soot covered painting was an antique masterpeice worth 1000 gp."Party #2: "Oh, it was worth 2000 gp when we sold it, and that was a pretty simple appraisal check once you clean the soot off."Party #1: "You waste skill points on appraisal?  It's a useless skill.  Heck, it's not even fair that the DM asked for an appraisal check.  Did you find the jade broach in the pond?"Party #2: "No."Party #1: "Did you find the uncut agate in the rubble filled room?"Party #2: "No."Party #1: "Sheesh.  You barely found anything.  You really need spend more time making search checks."Party #2: "Maybe, but we beat the BBEG and we had fun doing it."</blockquote>

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