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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scott Christian" data-source="post: 9100465" data-attributes="member: 6901101">Just to be fair, I never used the word failure. I actually refrained from using it because it was not a failure, and I didn't want it characterized as such. But what it was, was unsuccessful compared to what the company expected, compared to the effort and marketing they put in, and compared to how much WotC outsells other TTRPG companies. You are right, timing did play a factor. But, even if you had timing* such as Stranger Things, podcasts, Twitch streams, etc. and you combined them with the 4e ruleset, you still may not have had the success of 5e. We'll never know, but in my opinion, it would not have happened. Heck, there's a chance Pathfinder might have gained even greater ground. And that is because the 4e ruleset (as much as I like) does not play well for the average player. Here is an example: My wife was a new player during 4e's early years. We built her a character. She played a campaign for six months. And every time she used her daily, it was either: unsuccessful or mediocre. It never translated to fun table play. This is just one small example of how their ruleset impacted the feeling of the game.*On a different note, this was in fact the time these things were becoming incredibly successful, and the fantasy genre as a whole was blowing up all of media. From the Lord of the Rings happening a few years before and culminating in massive success to Harry Potter groundbreaking books to the ungodly amount of cheap fantasy shows being released and the constant references to D&D in all types of shows. Fantasy and the cultural phenomenon did exist when 4e was out. It's just 4e never really captured the general public's imagination. If most DMs were doing this, then that must be a problem with the ruleset, no? It must be a problem with the interpretation. I mean, all these 3e and 3.5e experienced DMs find themselves in unexperienced territory and can't run it correctly. That is a problem with the system. Per your example, you found someone that could bend and break it to run it successfully. A game's feeling and rules shouldn't have to be broken by a DM to be able to run successfully.I found this to be true when I would read people who criticized 4e. They pointed out the flaws, and the comeback would always be they're not playing correctly. Much like any edition war, I guess. But your example, I believe, alludes to the actual problem the masses had with it, and also why it didn't become a cultural phenomenon like 5e. This might be true. Or, there might become two types of players. One that plays at home, on a computer, using a 4e style of game, where they hire a chat bot that mimics Matt Mercer, and maybe, just maybe, they get together with a friend to play with. The other type is the one that still likes getting together with friends at a table, buying miniatures, rolling non-computer-generated dice, doing the math in their head, and using a ruleset like 5e.</blockquote>

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