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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 9103771" data-attributes="member: 7006">Yeah, but in any specific party at the time the challenge arises, there's going to be any number of pieces of magic that the party just won't have on hand.&nbsp; Which essentially means that magic might as well not even exist as far as the players and characters are concerned.If (general) you don't have any PC that took 'Find Traps', then it doesn't matter if that spells exists in the totality of D&amp;D because it's not going to help the characters at the time they need it.&nbsp; And at which point the Rogue with the appropriate skills will still have their place.&nbsp; How often do Wizard PCs actually have 'Knock' prepared (let alone in their spell book)?&nbsp; 'Comprehend Languages'?&nbsp;&nbsp; 'Spider Climb'?&nbsp; Does the Cleric or Druid PC have 'Water Breathing' prepared when the group is dungeon crawling (before coming upon an underground river tunnel to swim through?I do not disagree with the claim that a lot of magic and spells duplicate the functionality that skills do (and don't involve a check for it to work).&nbsp; I just disagree with how often they are ready available to the PCs when they need it most.&nbsp; Now maybe your table always seems to has the proper spell at hand at all times and thus makes some characters superfluous... but that is certainly not the experience at my tables.&nbsp; When we play, occasionally a PC might have a utility spell on hand to use at just the right time... but more often than not the ability check and skill system will still be the most frequent mechanic engaged with in the game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 9103771, member: 7006"] Yeah, but in any specific party at the time the challenge arises, there's going to be any number of pieces of magic that the party just won't have on hand. Which essentially means that magic might as well not even exist as far as the players and characters are concerned. If (general) you don't have any PC that took 'Find Traps', then it doesn't matter if that spells exists in the totality of D&D because it's not going to help the characters at the time they need it. And at which point the Rogue with the appropriate skills will still have their place. How often do Wizard PCs actually have 'Knock' prepared (let alone in their spell book)? 'Comprehend Languages'? 'Spider Climb'? Does the Cleric or Druid PC have 'Water Breathing' prepared when the group is dungeon crawling (before coming upon an underground river tunnel to swim through? I do not disagree with the claim that a lot of magic and spells duplicate the functionality that skills do (and don't involve a check for it to work). I just disagree with how often they are ready available to the PCs when they need it most. Now maybe your table always seems to has the proper spell at hand at all times and thus makes some characters superfluous... but that is certainly not the experience at my tables. When we play, occasionally a PC might have a utility spell on hand to use at just the right time... but more often than not the ability check and skill system will still be the most frequent mechanic engaged with in the game. [/QUOTE]

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