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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 8854390" data-attributes="member: 23484">I'm not going to answer every one of your points, because it is clear form your post that your preliminary assumptions differ from mine substantially. Particularly, the idea that you are "forced" into a one-level dip, frankly, makes no sense. I do not in the current game ever feel "forced" to multiclass, and there is nothing in the current playtest packs that makes multiclassing any more inevitable or "forced".However, a few small notes:Is there a reason you don't list the two first-level spells that Bards get? That, um, seems a substantial part of the class. To get that, and to get a free (better than) Healing word proficiency times/long rest seems much more powerful than anything you are suggesting for Cleric. It is clear you really don't like expertise. Fine -- I don't like it because it erodes the nich I think rogues shoudl hold, and I think too many classes have it, and you can get it through feats etc. But, as you note, that's really separate from the multiclassing issue. It's worth at least observing that you need to spend a spell slot to cast it.Can you explain why this causes you more anxiety that Bardic Inspiration?Finally, I'll talk about your thoughts on Holy orders, which requires a 2-level dip, and as such becomes part of a build established over many sessions.A. will almost certainly be possible from a 1-level dip in Fighter, so it does not seem overpowered. I would prefer characters invest in Wisdom and be rewarded for it. B. feels overstated to me. Yes, the presence of Persuasion there makes it powerful, but I do not think there's anything wrong with giving Expertise-level bonuses on Intelligence skills, since Int is so often a dump stat in any case. Compare the Knowledge cleric in the current game -- how often do people complain how it is uber-powerful? In my feedbck, I am going to suggest the bonus only be for INT skills (and so investigation rather than persuasion), and that fixes it for my tastes. C. Multiple levels of investment into cleric so that you can get Channel divinity features is actually what I want a cleric "dip" to give. This is good design, and if you see it as the obvious choice, then that's good design, doubling down on the core distinctive cleric mechanism. I'm really not seeing a problem here. We're operating with different assumptions, clearly, but we're both playing the same game. Some of this reaction seems extreme to me, and I think with small tweaks it could be even better.</blockquote>

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