Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8854432" data-attributes="member: 93670">Here's how it happens.  Take Alice(her first paladin) Bob(his first warlock) Chuck(an experienced player who made a hexadin) & Dave(the DM).<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dave tries to help Alice & bob get going & maybe gives them a pregen or holds their hand through creation.  He maybe even calls on Dave to help in that & they do so to the best of their ability</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Alice & Bob are very happy & think they areas awesome as they can be</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chuck is playing a dwarf with 8 strength 25ft speed platemail 20 cha huge con/wis/dex.  He's basically immune to anything capable of not stomping all over Alice & Bob thanks to his ac saves & HP.... Chuck also has the ability to hit just as easily as Alice with the same greatsword she uses & can even smite more often than her.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dave (the GM) notices the problems with Alice & Bob feeling so much lesser than  Chuck & it comes down to Dave having three options...<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Option one: [ispoiler] Demand Chuck make a new PC that is less optimized[/ispoiler]  Nobody will be happy after this with even Alice & bob feeling guilty because they will eventually realize Chuck self nerfed by choice (or got forced to self nerf) because of them</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Option two: [ispoiler]try to talk to Alice & bob about rebuilding their characters to be more optimized [/ispoiler]. Again this is a problem because Alice & bob thought they were making an awesome character & are now frustrated because the people they thought were honestly trying to help them do so are trying to sell them on making changes to a character they liked</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Option three: [ispoiler] Give Alice & bob awesome stuff to bring them up a bit towards Chuck's level[/ispoiler].  As Ackbar said, "It's a trap!!..." in more than one way though.  Firstly Alice & bob might not understand how to use it or why they really want to use this awesome bit of kit instead.  Second Alice or bob might see exactly how & stick that awesome feather in their cap just before taking the same dip Chuck did  to create an even bigger monster.  Third & worst of all Alice & Bob might simply refuse the AwesomeThing & suggest Chuck can make the best use of the AwesomeThing intended to bring them up to his level not widen the gap.</li> </ul></li> </ul>Oversight.  Charisma based casters (paladin & sorcerer) aren't likely to gain too much from the L1 bard spells though due to already having them or filling a somewhat different niche.  It's certainly not impossible that we wind up with a future packet where level one DIET spells is a gigantic edition but we don't have much reason to suspect that given what we know is traditionally true about other castersIt is but arcana expertise for example can be the bit needed for an <a href="http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wondrous-items:mizzium-apparatus" target="_blank">uncommon item</a> to allow an int based caster with some dips to treat almost every spell of every level  as simultaneously prepared.  There is not yet anything in oned&d that gets borked by expertise but there could be in the future so it's worth noting.  Noting the value of expertise for what it is doesn't just come from a dislike of expertise though, it directly subverts what seems to still be part of one d&d's design plans.It does give you some of those & I did note them <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I don't think it did.   "enticing" looks to be the strongest term I used & the bard overall got [ispoiler]"There are some questionably dipworthy abilities but barring interaction with abilities from classes we do not yet have bard is probably not a class that's going to make nonbards feel forced to dip. Bard probably meets the goal Crawford laid out."[/ispoiler]  It's worth noting because we are missing 8 classes & 44 subclasses that could interact in noteworthy ways that turn it into something more than just being dipworthy.That second level following a multiple great first level abilities with one scaling by PB both for number of uses & number of dice involved when used.  The second level is going to depend on the specific combo & build a player is going for but it already has some great options.  A dip is the sum of its parts & the first two levels of cleric have some that seem overly good.</blockquote>

Verification