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Message: <blockquote data-quote="molonel" data-source="post: 963516" data-attributes="member: 10412">As some have already pointed out, you need to define your terms a bit.  You talk about both strength and fun, and your definition of strength is quite slippery.  Unless you run a game sans combat, sans traps, sans monsters, or even sans opposition, then sooner or later characters are going to need to be STRONG in ways that don't involve pure roleplaying.  D&D is a very tactical games.  There are pages and pages of rules that define how combat runs.  If you want a storyteller game that doesn't rely on such mechanics, try White Wolf.  But then again, I've seen Vampire and Werewolf games that were every bit as min-maxed as any D&D game I've ever played.People come to forums to argue and compare.  So in some sense it has to do with the nature of internet forums.  I see plenty of cutesy, "my character did this and it was neato-keen!" threads drop like a stone without comment.  But post an alternate interpretation of some obscure rule, and you can get a regular flameware going."But it's worth mentioning that the most fun is to be had playing to the character instead of to the stats." - wolfenYou are, quite frankly, wrong.  The MOST fun to be had is playing to both.  You work hard (combat) and you play hard (pure roleplaying, whatever that is).  I play in a high-octane evil campaign.  Our characters aren't QUITE min-maxed as bad as they could be, but they're pretty darn close.  When combat hits the fan, we dump high-level magics like a mofo.  There's nothing like rolling a big fist full of damage dice, and then dividing them up into 10's for easy counting.  Booyah!But then again, we can spend all day long searching through a library for clues, and roleplaying with the head librarian, and researching riddles and lost lore.Whatever we do, we do it up.  And THAT is how we have fun."If the DM is actually creating a gripping campaign, won't there be great value to Diplomacy, Disguise, and stealth? Won't he reward the player who plays a dumb or unwise character properly?" - WolfenYeah, yeah - I've heard about this line of thinking before.  Punish high strength, low charisma characters by having them get robbed, and richly reward the 3.0 bard with the 18 charisma who can't even hold a dagger straight in combat with all kinds of spotlights and rich, rewarding roleplaying sessions.  God, I've played with people who pride themselves on playing bards, and some of them insist of having the spotlights.  I played in an RPGA session where the DM actually had to tell this one woman to shut up and stop describing her character because she went on and on and on and on.*puke*And, as someone already pointed out, in a campaign like what you mentioned, someone will doubtless min-max with Diplomacy, disguise and stealth.  He will have skill-enhancing items like a cloak and boots of elvenkind, a headband of +15 diplomacy, a Hat of Disguise.  You've just exchanged one kind of min-maxing for another.  Improvement?  I don't think so."Ok, I'm done. It just seems like the Min/Maxers are taking over the forums. Even people who think they're clever and balanced are actually just rambling endlessly about the best stats they can construct instead of the best characters they can construct." - WolfenWell, right now, you're just rambling about criticizing the people who ramble endlessly about the best stats they can construct.  How about contributing something, instead?</blockquote>

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