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The Sublime Saboteur: Shinobi
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<blockquote data-quote="Arkhandus" data-source="post: 4055296" data-attributes="member: 13966"><p>Well, let's see. To start with, neat!</p><p></p><p>Secondly, well, I've only looked over the class so far, not the other sections, but here's the stuff that sticks out.</p><p></p><p>1, I see no real reason for why the class must be nonevil, especially given the real-world and vast majority of fictional origins and uses of ninja/shinobi/kunoichi. I can understand the nonchaotic requirement due to the demands of discipline and oaths, but the nonevil part has no solid reasoning behind it.</p><p></p><p>Someone somewhere is going to turn the teachings into a non-benevolent means to their ends, and an amoral master of the shinobi's techniques is bound to appear at some point and create their own clan, likely for the sake of furthering the master's own ends through the aid of trained minions.</p><p></p><p>Druids can find harmony with nature even when neutral evil; monks can find harmony within themselves even when lawful evil; however unusual they may see it through the lens of their immoral attitude and goals; I see absolutely no reason there could not be evil shinobi, especially given the sources, both historical and fictional.</p><p></p><p>After all, just because you've achieved inner peace and harmony with nature doesn't mean you can't still have goals of conquest and tyranny and forcible conversion of everyone else to your 'perfect' way, or whatever it is the evil shinobi is after.</p><p></p><p>So, ditch the nonevil restriction.</p><p></p><p>It might be that the majority of shinobi clans in your setting are righteous or protective in nature, rather than shadowy assassins and thieves and spies and all that. But those last three points are really what ninjas are traditionally all about, insofar as their service to the local lord or clan leader, even though the true purpose of all their training is to achieve meditative tranquility and clarity and such. Killing people is generally evil; only when done for a good cause and when other options aren't reasonable is it a nonevil act, insofar as D&D alignment is concerned anyway.</p><p></p><p>Mastering the arts of stealthy killing, deception, and perfect killing strokes (like Diamond Nightmare Blade) is generally going to be something that draws evil folks or corrupts nonevil folks with their mastery over other peoples' life and death. Ya gotta have an iron will to avoid that, and sometimes people change, so there's gonna be evil shinobi running around eventually, even if they start off as rare.</p><p></p><p></p><p>2, is there any particular reason that Shinobi get Craft, Perform, and Ride, despite not having Handle Animal, Profession, Diplomacy, or similar? They don't have the skills to really fill the roles of ordinary peasants and servants while spying and waiting for the right time to strike down or poison or steal whatever/whoever they've been sent for. So why do they get Craft, Perform, and Ride?</p><p></p><p>They don't have people skills (only skill at lying), they don't have trade skills, they don't have animal skills, so why do they have an easy time learning to ride a horse, sing songs, play music, craft goods, build ships, or perform theater? I can at least understand some limited access to Perform and Craft, if you wanted to give them only Craft (weaponsmithing) and Perform (act), but not anything beyond that, really.</p><p></p><p>I'd probably remove Ride, and the other Craft/Perform skills, from their set of class skills.</p><p></p><p></p><p>3, why don't they have Disable Device, Open Lock, and Search as class skills? Or Decipher Script for spywork in decoding documents or making use of secret messages between themselves and other members of the clan? They don't have Sleight of Hand either, nor Forgery. Though I suppose that Decipher Script and Forgery probably aren't important, anyway, and could easily be picked up through dipping into Rogue for any rare Shinobi who find themselves needing those skills.</p><p></p><p></p><p>4, why don't they get Trapfinding and/or Poison Use? I could imagine them getting Trapfinding at 1st-level, and Poison Use sometime between 4th and 9th.</p><p></p><p></p><p>5, the Way of the Shinobi class features are kinda oddly spread out; they should get them at odd-numbered levels, at least past the first one (the first one should still be at 2nd-level, followed by each new one being received at 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc.).</p><p></p><p>The reason is that, as-is, the Shinobi sucks at many odd-numbered levels, especially 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th. They get no BAB or save bonuses at those levels (aside from +1 Fortitude at 9th), and only 1 new maneuver known each time, while the even-numbered levels always rock. Their save bonuses mostly go up on even-numbered levels, aside from the occasional Fortitude boost at an odd-numbered level.</p><p></p><p>Give them something at 20th-level to make up for the shift, then, like the Stance Mastery of a Warblade. It'd mesh well and make it worthwhile to take all 20 levels, rather than dipping a bit in other stuff. Or maybe just the Dual Boost 3/day of a Swordsage at 20th-level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>6, Dawn's Release is more powerful than the 10th-step abilities of the other paths, and should probably be weakened somewhat. Maybe a limited number of rounds per day, like 2 rounds per Shinobi level per day, used as a free action on each round that they want to gain the benefit. Also, there's no way it should be an Extraordinary ability; Freedom of Movement gives immunity to all kinds of stuff, and some of that just couldn't be from pure skill. It should be Supernatural (there are some supernatural maneuvers, after all).</p><p></p><p></p><p>7, Diamond's Edge is way stronger than the other 1st-step abilities, and probably overpowering for a Shinobi compared to a Swordsage of equal level. It also meshes incredibly well with various Diamond Mind maneuvers. I would limit it to affecting only attack rolls, but maybe you'd rather have it applied to damage rolls instead, I dunno.</p><p></p><p></p><p>8, Diamond Sight should be Supernatural, given how True Sight works, it just doesn't seem like it could all be done nonmagically or without vast magic-like amounts of ki.</p><p></p><p></p><p>9, Midnight Swiftness is a bit odd; apparently, an unencumbered human with it could move at a speed of 20 or 25 feet without suffering a penalty on Hide or Move Silently checks, instead of only 15 feet, but couldn't move his full 30 foot speed without the penalty. How about just saying that the Shinobi with Midnight Swiftness suffers no penalty on Hide or Move Silently checks for moving at his or her full speed or less, except when running or charging?</p><p></p><p>Also, I'm thinking that maybe Midnight Swiftness or Nightstrider should also apply to either Survival checks for tracking, or allow moving at full speed while trying to hide a trail. Take a look at the Track feat's description for details on how it normally works.</p><p></p><p></p><p>10, I'm not quite sure how your version of Camouflage is supposed to work, or how it's supposed to work/interact with Hide In Plain Sight. Does the Shinobi just disappear without seeming to go anywhere, without needing a shadow or bush or anything to hide in, all the while moving about easily and utterly invisible somehow? And without magical means?</p><p></p><p></p><p>11, Nameless might be kinda weak compared to the other 10th-step abilities, so maybe add Undetectable Alignment to its effect. And make it supernatural, like the others that duplicate spells constantly.</p><p></p><p></p><p>12, Superior Misdirection seems like it may deserve an extra little boost compared to the other 10th-step abilities. Maybe it duplicates a Mirror Image each time it is used to successfully feint against an opponent as a free action, creating 1 mirror image of the Shinobi until the Shinobi's next turn? Or maybe that's a bit much, hrm. If it does get a minor spell effect added to it, it should become Supernatural like the others.</p><p></p><p>But, I'm not sure. The Deceiving Wind ability is pretty effective with each feint, anyway, so Superior Misdirection might be fine as-is.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arkhandus, post: 4055296, member: 13966"] Well, let's see. To start with, neat! Secondly, well, I've only looked over the class so far, not the other sections, but here's the stuff that sticks out. 1, I see no real reason for why the class must be nonevil, especially given the real-world and vast majority of fictional origins and uses of ninja/shinobi/kunoichi. I can understand the nonchaotic requirement due to the demands of discipline and oaths, but the nonevil part has no solid reasoning behind it. Someone somewhere is going to turn the teachings into a non-benevolent means to their ends, and an amoral master of the shinobi's techniques is bound to appear at some point and create their own clan, likely for the sake of furthering the master's own ends through the aid of trained minions. Druids can find harmony with nature even when neutral evil; monks can find harmony within themselves even when lawful evil; however unusual they may see it through the lens of their immoral attitude and goals; I see absolutely no reason there could not be evil shinobi, especially given the sources, both historical and fictional. After all, just because you've achieved inner peace and harmony with nature doesn't mean you can't still have goals of conquest and tyranny and forcible conversion of everyone else to your 'perfect' way, or whatever it is the evil shinobi is after. So, ditch the nonevil restriction. It might be that the majority of shinobi clans in your setting are righteous or protective in nature, rather than shadowy assassins and thieves and spies and all that. But those last three points are really what ninjas are traditionally all about, insofar as their service to the local lord or clan leader, even though the true purpose of all their training is to achieve meditative tranquility and clarity and such. Killing people is generally evil; only when done for a good cause and when other options aren't reasonable is it a nonevil act, insofar as D&D alignment is concerned anyway. Mastering the arts of stealthy killing, deception, and perfect killing strokes (like Diamond Nightmare Blade) is generally going to be something that draws evil folks or corrupts nonevil folks with their mastery over other peoples' life and death. Ya gotta have an iron will to avoid that, and sometimes people change, so there's gonna be evil shinobi running around eventually, even if they start off as rare. 2, is there any particular reason that Shinobi get Craft, Perform, and Ride, despite not having Handle Animal, Profession, Diplomacy, or similar? They don't have the skills to really fill the roles of ordinary peasants and servants while spying and waiting for the right time to strike down or poison or steal whatever/whoever they've been sent for. So why do they get Craft, Perform, and Ride? They don't have people skills (only skill at lying), they don't have trade skills, they don't have animal skills, so why do they have an easy time learning to ride a horse, sing songs, play music, craft goods, build ships, or perform theater? I can at least understand some limited access to Perform and Craft, if you wanted to give them only Craft (weaponsmithing) and Perform (act), but not anything beyond that, really. I'd probably remove Ride, and the other Craft/Perform skills, from their set of class skills. 3, why don't they have Disable Device, Open Lock, and Search as class skills? Or Decipher Script for spywork in decoding documents or making use of secret messages between themselves and other members of the clan? They don't have Sleight of Hand either, nor Forgery. Though I suppose that Decipher Script and Forgery probably aren't important, anyway, and could easily be picked up through dipping into Rogue for any rare Shinobi who find themselves needing those skills. 4, why don't they get Trapfinding and/or Poison Use? I could imagine them getting Trapfinding at 1st-level, and Poison Use sometime between 4th and 9th. 5, the Way of the Shinobi class features are kinda oddly spread out; they should get them at odd-numbered levels, at least past the first one (the first one should still be at 2nd-level, followed by each new one being received at 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc.). The reason is that, as-is, the Shinobi sucks at many odd-numbered levels, especially 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th. They get no BAB or save bonuses at those levels (aside from +1 Fortitude at 9th), and only 1 new maneuver known each time, while the even-numbered levels always rock. Their save bonuses mostly go up on even-numbered levels, aside from the occasional Fortitude boost at an odd-numbered level. Give them something at 20th-level to make up for the shift, then, like the Stance Mastery of a Warblade. It'd mesh well and make it worthwhile to take all 20 levels, rather than dipping a bit in other stuff. Or maybe just the Dual Boost 3/day of a Swordsage at 20th-level. 6, Dawn's Release is more powerful than the 10th-step abilities of the other paths, and should probably be weakened somewhat. Maybe a limited number of rounds per day, like 2 rounds per Shinobi level per day, used as a free action on each round that they want to gain the benefit. Also, there's no way it should be an Extraordinary ability; Freedom of Movement gives immunity to all kinds of stuff, and some of that just couldn't be from pure skill. It should be Supernatural (there are some supernatural maneuvers, after all). 7, Diamond's Edge is way stronger than the other 1st-step abilities, and probably overpowering for a Shinobi compared to a Swordsage of equal level. It also meshes incredibly well with various Diamond Mind maneuvers. I would limit it to affecting only attack rolls, but maybe you'd rather have it applied to damage rolls instead, I dunno. 8, Diamond Sight should be Supernatural, given how True Sight works, it just doesn't seem like it could all be done nonmagically or without vast magic-like amounts of ki. 9, Midnight Swiftness is a bit odd; apparently, an unencumbered human with it could move at a speed of 20 or 25 feet without suffering a penalty on Hide or Move Silently checks, instead of only 15 feet, but couldn't move his full 30 foot speed without the penalty. How about just saying that the Shinobi with Midnight Swiftness suffers no penalty on Hide or Move Silently checks for moving at his or her full speed or less, except when running or charging? Also, I'm thinking that maybe Midnight Swiftness or Nightstrider should also apply to either Survival checks for tracking, or allow moving at full speed while trying to hide a trail. Take a look at the Track feat's description for details on how it normally works. 10, I'm not quite sure how your version of Camouflage is supposed to work, or how it's supposed to work/interact with Hide In Plain Sight. Does the Shinobi just disappear without seeming to go anywhere, without needing a shadow or bush or anything to hide in, all the while moving about easily and utterly invisible somehow? And without magical means? 11, Nameless might be kinda weak compared to the other 10th-step abilities, so maybe add Undetectable Alignment to its effect. And make it supernatural, like the others that duplicate spells constantly. 12, Superior Misdirection seems like it may deserve an extra little boost compared to the other 10th-step abilities. Maybe it duplicates a Mirror Image each time it is used to successfully feint against an opponent as a free action, creating 1 mirror image of the Shinobi until the Shinobi's next turn? Or maybe that's a bit much, hrm. If it does get a minor spell effect added to it, it should become Supernatural like the others. But, I'm not sure. The Deceiving Wind ability is pretty effective with each feint, anyway, so Superior Misdirection might be fine as-is. [/QUOTE]
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