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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2271388" data-attributes="member: 4937">Actually, the more I think about it, the more Pielorinho's suggestion makes perfect sense.What defines whether an action is reasonable?&nbsp; In the rules its the DM, but no guidance is given to the DM but his own judgement of what he finds reasonable.&nbsp;&nbsp; If he's a good DM, what he finds reasonable at that time is precisely what they NPC finds reasonable.&nbsp;&nbsp; What the NPC normally find reasonable is determined by nothing less than an opposed check between the person making the suggestions Bluff skill, and the NPC's own Sense Motive skill.&nbsp;&nbsp; The DM still has to modify the target DC circumstantially (as outlined in the description of the Bluff skill) depending on how far fetched the lie is, but now the DM doesn't have to rule absolutely on whether or not something is reasonable.&nbsp;&nbsp; Skilled liers ought to be able to make things sound more reasonable, and particularly astute observers ought to have a greater natural skepticism.&nbsp; The force can have a strong influence over the weak minded.It's also worth noting that a person with sufficient diplomacy can spontaneously cast the Suggestion spell by making a DC 50 check.The only thing I have against Pielorinho's suggestion is that I don't like resolving things with more dice rolls than is absolutely needed.&nbsp;&nbsp; Pielorinho's suggestion reveals not how powerful suggestion is, but how relatively weak it is.&nbsp;&nbsp; After all, a person that makes a DC 30 bluff check probably doesn't need to cast a suggestion spell in order for, &quot;I know you're not supposed to tell anyone the password to the meeting-chamber, but your boss said it was an emergency and that he ordered you to give it to us; I suggest that you go ahead and tell us the password to the meeting-chamber.&quot; to work.&nbsp;&nbsp; What suggestion does in this context is allow a person to retry a bluff that has failed, and to substitute his presumably superior spell DC and targets presumably inferior Will save for the more normal bluff vs. sense motive contest.&nbsp;&nbsp; I personally don't see anything unreasonable with a DM suggesting that the best way to decide whether or not a suggestion is reasonable is with a contest of appropriate skills.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 2271388, member: 4937"] Actually, the more I think about it, the more Pielorinho's suggestion makes perfect sense. What defines whether an action is reasonable? In the rules its the DM, but no guidance is given to the DM but his own judgement of what he finds reasonable. If he's a good DM, what he finds reasonable at that time is precisely what they NPC finds reasonable. What the NPC normally find reasonable is determined by nothing less than an opposed check between the person making the suggestions Bluff skill, and the NPC's own Sense Motive skill. The DM still has to modify the target DC circumstantially (as outlined in the description of the Bluff skill) depending on how far fetched the lie is, but now the DM doesn't have to rule absolutely on whether or not something is reasonable. Skilled liers ought to be able to make things sound more reasonable, and particularly astute observers ought to have a greater natural skepticism. The force can have a strong influence over the weak minded. It's also worth noting that a person with sufficient diplomacy can spontaneously cast the Suggestion spell by making a DC 50 check. The only thing I have against Pielorinho's suggestion is that I don't like resolving things with more dice rolls than is absolutely needed. Pielorinho's suggestion reveals not how powerful suggestion is, but how relatively weak it is. After all, a person that makes a DC 30 bluff check probably doesn't need to cast a suggestion spell in order for, "I know you're not supposed to tell anyone the password to the meeting-chamber, but your boss said it was an emergency and that he ordered you to give it to us; I suggest that you go ahead and tell us the password to the meeting-chamber." to work. What suggestion does in this context is allow a person to retry a bluff that has failed, and to substitute his presumably superior spell DC and targets presumably inferior Will save for the more normal bluff vs. sense motive contest. I personally don't see anything unreasonable with a DM suggesting that the best way to decide whether or not a suggestion is reasonable is with a contest of appropriate skills. [/QUOTE]

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