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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5960891" data-attributes="member: 22779">Well, it's not in the section about listening, which does actually list elves and halflings, and it's not under thief abilities.&nbsp; So, where would I find this ruling?This is what really starts me spinning around in these conversations.&nbsp; If I'm wrong about the mechanics, fair enough, point me to the page and I'll go away.&nbsp; And, if there actually was a page to point to, typically 1e grognards would be the first to do so to rub my nose in it.But, when you point to a page where the rules actually say something different than what people claim, suddenly it's, &quot;There are some places - and [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] quoted one of them above - where the 1e DMG needs a layer of common sense applied.&quot;&nbsp; And it drives me nuts.&nbsp; Sure, you can play the card of, &quot;Well a GOOD Dm would fix this problem&quot; but, it doesn't change the fact that the problem exists in the first place.We started down this road because of the claim about &quot;smart&quot; play where PC's would be able to control when and where encounters occur.&nbsp; I countered that 1st level PC's do not have the resources to do this and could actually quote chapter and verse to prove my point.&nbsp; The goalposts then suddenly sprout rollerskates and leave the building.&nbsp; Oh, it's not that PC's don't have the resources, I'm just too incompetent of a DM to adjust the rules to make it ... what... more realistic?&nbsp; More believable?&nbsp; More of how you want to play the game?&nbsp; More like whatever version of D&amp;D you think is the way it should be played?The inherent one-true-wayism in the statements above are mind boggling.&nbsp; Mind boggling because I honestly don't think that people recognize what they are doing.&nbsp; Sure, I could change the game to suit my tastes.&nbsp; Yet, funnily enough, whenever that argument gets trotted out about any other edition, it's suddenly no good and doesn't work.&nbsp; The double standards that get applied are wonderous to see in action.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5960891, member: 22779"] Well, it's not in the section about listening, which does actually list elves and halflings, and it's not under thief abilities. So, where would I find this ruling? This is what really starts me spinning around in these conversations. If I'm wrong about the mechanics, fair enough, point me to the page and I'll go away. And, if there actually was a page to point to, typically 1e grognards would be the first to do so to rub my nose in it. But, when you point to a page where the rules actually say something different than what people claim, suddenly it's, "There are some places - and [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] quoted one of them above - where the 1e DMG needs a layer of common sense applied." And it drives me nuts. Sure, you can play the card of, "Well a GOOD Dm would fix this problem" but, it doesn't change the fact that the problem exists in the first place. We started down this road because of the claim about "smart" play where PC's would be able to control when and where encounters occur. I countered that 1st level PC's do not have the resources to do this and could actually quote chapter and verse to prove my point. The goalposts then suddenly sprout rollerskates and leave the building. Oh, it's not that PC's don't have the resources, I'm just too incompetent of a DM to adjust the rules to make it ... what... more realistic? More believable? More of how you want to play the game? More like whatever version of D&D you think is the way it should be played? The inherent one-true-wayism in the statements above are mind boggling. Mind boggling because I honestly don't think that people recognize what they are doing. Sure, I could change the game to suit my tastes. Yet, funnily enough, whenever that argument gets trotted out about any other edition, it's suddenly no good and doesn't work. The double standards that get applied are wonderous to see in action. [/QUOTE]

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