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Message: <blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9375277" data-attributes="member: 6877472">I'm not saying Ravenloft can't be fun.  I think in the hands of a good DM with group buy-in, it could be.  But my experience has been that Ravenloft is a setting that's inflicted upon players, rather than them really wanting to play there.You make your characters, you're all set to play some D&D when, suddenly-"A thick fog rises around you, you cannot see beyond your own hand.  Sound is muffled, muted- you no longer know if it is day or night, all sense of direction has been stripped from you.Then, without warning, it begins to clear, and you find yourself somewhere...else.  Somewhere...darker."And cue the groans because the players know that they're going to be underleveled, under-geared, laboring under nerfs to their abilities, against overtuned monsters, because the people who make this setting don't really get how to frighten a PC- so they go after the player the only way they know how.  Threatening to take their character away, or warp it into something unrecognizable.Is this how all Ravenloft games are?  I highly doubt it.  But enough of them have been that way that it's rare that I've ever encountered anyone in real life who has played in a Ravenloft game who doesn't immediately get a thousand yard stare as their PTSD is triggered.It's like how some people really enjoy Call of Cthulhu- you're doomed, your choices probably don't matter, almost all the enemies can kill you instantly and shrug off firearms and high explosives.  I was in a scenario where a Star Vampire was killing people, and nothing we tried worked- there was a specific way to defeat it, and that was that.  Classic railroad.But I'm told, despite how dismal the experience my friends had, that particular scenario is well-loved by many CoC fans.  And it really comes down to, people who play a game are looking for a certain experience.  You want existential horror in a doomed world?  CoC is apparently your game.But D&D has always been "yeah, this world is tough, and a cheap death is always right around the corner, but given time, your humble hero may become a champion capable of throwing down with Gods."And in Ravenloft?  Nothing you do matters much.  You can't fight the Dark Powers.  If they tire of you, you'll be chucked out of the Demiplane, and told that's you're reward.  You can't kill Strahd- the Dark Powers love to feast on his torment, so they'll always bring him back.  Barovia will always be crushed beneath his heel. It's the way of things.  You'd be better off trying to wrestle with gravity or time- those are things D&D characters can interact with.Even massive shakeups to the setting don't really involve the players*.  The Grand Conjunction?  All a plot by a powerful daemon, Inajira, to get himself out of Ravenloft.  The players are either unwilling dupes or spectators to what's going on here.*I'm not familiar with the other shakeups- I bought the Sword & Sorcery Ravenloft and was just confused by all the changes.  Maybe the players are more involved.  But to me, it was just like the Vecna Saga.  Vecna does things, and you're kind of witnessing it.And I have Ravenloft adventures I love.  Adam's Wrath and The Created play with body horror- you wake up as a powerful flesh golem.  You're bodyjacked by a tiny, weak puppet and the most dangerous thing in the adventure is a damn housecat!But a lot of players do not want to sign up for that experience, and I admit, it can be pretty dreadful.  The last time I ran The Created, one character permanently ended up in the wrong body and the player opted to retire the character rather than continue their story, saying it was "too much".I was confused, but I decided to let it drop.  It wasn't something they wanted to explore.Ultimately though, I think it goes to show that making the magic happen isn't something a setting can do for you.  Just saying "we're playing Ravenloft" doesn't make D&D any better at creating a horror game.  The most terrifying D&D adventure I've ever run was a non-Ravenloft adventure in Dungeon where you're trapped in an inn during a storm, and some poor fool is murdered when a Red Slaad hatches from him, and it quickly turns into a sendup of Alien meets The Thing when you start having to ask, who is infected?  Who is going to lose their character because some alien frog demon is going to inject them with it's offspring, to be consumed from within?Will anyone survive?</blockquote>

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