The "threatened squares" of Tiny creatures...

[azhrei_fje]

Do Tiny creatures threaten the square they are in?

First some situational background, then I'll give some quotes from the SRD (unspecified in the PF Beta, AFAICT).

The party's mage sent his celestial viper familiar to attack an opponent. The viper provokes an AOO from entering the opponent's square, but the opponent had a range weapon in-hand. Then the bad guy leaves the square they were in. And hence the question: does the viper get an AOO against the departing bad guy? Before you answer, some important rules quotes.

Big and Little Creatures In Combat

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures

Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

How do those three bolded sentences combine?

The first sentence, You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. seems to be directed towards a normal-sized Medium creature and involves what such a creature can do. It would also seem to apply to a Tiny creature attacking another Tiny creature within the same 5-foot square.

The second sentence, Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. seems clear that they do not threaten the other 5-foot squares around the one they are in. But do they threaten their own square? These rules seem ambiguous, because a creature with a bow can attack in their own square (technically) and yet doesn't threaten the square they are in. If the game designers meant for Tiny and smaller creatures to threaten their own square, wouldn't they have chosen different language for the first sentence? Perhaps something like, You always threaten your own square when using melee attacks, so you may target any creature occupying the same square as yourself. And what about the idea that Tiny creatures occupy only one-quarter of the 5-foot square they are in? Would such a Tiny creature be able to attack another Tiny creature in the same 5-foot square but in a different quarter? Would your answer to this be the same for Diminutive and Fine creatures where there are creatures that are not adjacent to others within the same 5-foot square?

The last sentence, You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. uses the somewhat vague phrase, "move past". Is simply restating the previous sentence that they don't threaten other 5-foot squares around them? Or does it mean that a Medium-sized creature can move past them -- including through the 5-foot square occupied by the Tiny creature -- without provoking?

So... If a Medium-sized creature leaves the single 5-foot square that they occupy, do they provoke an AOO from a Tiny creature also in the same square?

 

[frankthedm]

The red text is not that hard to read, but the green text colour you chose is kinda hard to read on the default Enworld colour scheme. The Dark blue is almost painful to read on the enworld dark background. Lime and Cyan work MUCH better for users using the default colour pattern.

As long as one assumes you threaten the square you occupy, the tiny critter should get an AoO.

I'd hazard a guess that Moving past is different than moving through. Hell, legally a medium creature can't move through a square occupied by tiny creatures, though a large creature could:

Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

 

[azhrei_fje]

The red text is not that hard to read, but the green text colour you chose is kinda hard to read on the default Enworld colour scheme. The Dark blue is almost painful to read on the enworld dark background. Lime and Cyan work MUCH better for users using the default colour pattern.

Thanks. Updated.

As long as one assumes you threaten the square you occupy, the tiny critter should get an AoO.

Well, therein lies the rub, eh?

Suppose that instead of Tiny, the create was Fine. Would it threaten the entire 5-foot square? If not, why not?

Obviously, the grid is a method to clarify positional issues in combat, but it isn't always going to spell out exactly what happens in various circumstances.

So frankthedm, are you saying you would allow the AOO? What happens if the creature is in a square with a swarm of 300 Tiny creatures? The rules say that a swarm never gets attacks of opportunity. Why not? And what happens if there are 299 Tiny creatures instead? Is it still a swarm? If not, does each creature get an AOO? If no AOO is allowed, at what point does the swarm become individual creatures? Is that why the 5-foot square is broken up into four pieces and each piece can hold a Tiny creature? But why would a square holding 4 Tiny creatures allow AOOs, but not a square holding 5 Tiny creatures? Or 300 Tiny creatures? (Well, that last one is easy: GM sanity!)

I'd hazard a guess that Moving past is different than moving through. Hell, legally a medium creature can't move through a square occupied by tiny creatures, though a large creature could:

Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

Heh, good point. I'd forgotten about that it was even on the same page of the web site.

 

[frankthedm]

So frankthedm, are you saying you would allow the AOO?

Nope, I've reconsidered the issue and rules seem to be different than I assumed. The tiny critters are ONLY in the character space for duration of the attack. They must move into the space to make their attack. The player takes his AoO. The tiny attack is then made. Nothing I'm seeing in the rules for the tiny creatures lets them remain in the larger creatures space thus this kicks in

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

What happens if the creature is in a square with a swarm of 300 Tiny creatures? The rules say that a swarm never gets attacks of opportunity. Why not?

Swarms work by different rules than individual monsters. They are also worth a lot less XP than the ridiculously high amount the ruleset would call for their individual components. CR 1/8 for a rat may not seem like much, but it is far more than it ought to be. IMHO 300 rats don’t equal 37 orc barbarians.

And what happens if there are 299 Tiny creatures instead? Is it still a swarm?

I’ll go out on a limb and say the reduction in numbers is what represents the swarm taking damage.

If no AOO is allowed, at what point does the swarm become individual creatures?

At the point the swarm takes enough damage to disperse, with the survivors becoming No XP Dungeon Dressing. IMHO The characters get the XP for dispersing the swarm, the few remainders go about their business.

 

[udalrich]

The rules to me always felt like they were written assuming one combatant was Small or larger. It certainly seems reasonable that a Tiny creature attacking a Small creature should have no more or less trouble than a Medium creature attacking a Large creature. (We'll ignore the oddity that Small creatures can move into range of a Medium creature without provoking an AoO.) There's even an admission of something similar, when it explains why small creatures get a to-hit bonus that exactly cancels the size AC bonus of a same size creature.

If there was ambiguity in the rules, I'd think in terms of a 2.5' grid, and give Tiny creatures a 2.5' reach. When the Tiny creature moves into the neighboring (2.5') square, it leaves a square threatened by a Small creature, and provokes an AoO, which corresponds to the AoO for entering the other creatures square. If it's entering melee with another Tiny creature, it enters a threatened square but doesn't leave one, so there's no AoO. If the creature that the Tiny creature attacked moves on its turn, then it provokes an AoO, regardless of whether its Tiny or Small.

It also means that a Tiny creature can remain in melee without provoking an AoO on every turn, which some interpretations require. That seems wrong, especially since a Medium creature can remain in melee with a Large creature and only provoke the original AoO (assuming the Large creature doesn't retreat far enough to provoke an AoO itself).

In all this, I'm assuming nominal reach and face for all different sizes.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Thanks, frankthedm. This has turned out to be a more interesting question than I thought.

When I changed the number of creatures from 300 to 299 (in relation to a swarm of Tiny creatures) I was trying to show that at some point there must be an arbitrary line drawn that says, "these are individual creatures vs. a swarm". Where is that line? Once you draw that line, then the rest of the rules regarding movement and AOOs need to account for the numbers used.

I'm fine with saying that combat is abstract: you don't occupy a 5-foot square any more than a large bear actually occupies a 10-foot square. The rules make those assumptions to allow for easier adjudication by the GM. In the mean time, if something seems off a little bit, well... That's why there is a GM -- to make decisions on those kinds of things.

 

[azhrei_fje]

The discussion in our group has taken a turn. (First, we're playing Pathfinder and not D&D 3.5, but so far the rules seem the same, except as noted below.)

Let's say that we allow a Tiny creature to occupy the same square as a Medium creature, i.e. the Tiny creature can move into and remain in the other creature's square. There is a stronger argument against this in PF than in 3.5E, since PF has even modified the Grapple action so that two creatures do not occupy the same square (PF uses the phrase "adjacent squares").

Should the Tiny creature receive an AOO if the Medium creature provokes? The Tiny creature has a reach of 0 and doesn't threaten the squares around it (a phrase that Pathfinder has changed to "adjacent squares"), but does the Tiny creature threaten the entire of its 5-foot square? What about a Diminutive creature?

My player with the Tiny-size familiar doesn't see any rules that say Tiny and smaller creatures do NOT receive an AOO if one is provoked. My argument is that there is then no reason for a swarm to not receive AOOs. But I've offered to play by his suggestion at the next session and I'll work a swarm into an encounter somehow. We'll see how it goes.

But I'm curious that this thread hasn't gotten much traffic. How do you other GMs rule on the "Tiny creature in the same space as a Medium creature" and "does a Tiny creature get AOOs against a Medium creature in teh same square"?