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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thotas" data-source="post: 2379883" data-attributes="member: 18974">"D&D's philosophy seems to be that those who get enjoyment from heavy character involvement don't NEED the rules as much. So the rules exist for those who get enjoyment out of knowing how good at hitting a charging troll at 20 paces Gwyfayri is. I don't need any sort of manual to tell me motive, and I would, in fact, be slightly irked at one which would"Bingo, Midget.  When I really started to play this game, it was with some guys who were old-time wargamers, Squad Leader and such.   You know those individual commander counters in the SL game?  They role-played those guys.  Gave them individual personalities, acted out the giving of orders to their troops.  The people who criticized 3e for not having any roleplaying rules missed the fact that RP is done outside of what we generally think of as the rules.  And then, when the Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate skills were pointed out to them, it would inspire a rant about how you're replaceing role-playing with roll-playing ... missing that one still had to act out the scene, because the details of The Deal, The Lie or The Threat were too important for the play of the story as it proceeds from there, as well as modifiying the roll.  (And the roll gives those who aren't trained/gifted actor a chance to succeed with the tasks.)Granted, there are a large number of new-to-the-hobby folks who don't know about the joys of character involvement.  Some of that comes just with time, some comes with exposure to those of us wh do.  Some will never get it at all.  What can be done about it?  Probably not much.  You can write a 20 page chapter in the 4e PHB, and the munchkins will yawn and turn to the next chapter.  I recommend patience if they show promise, reorganizing the group if they don't.</blockquote>

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