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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8680692" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I don't agree with either of those principals.#1 it depends entirely on the game, the social&nbsp; contract and really the size of the party.&nbsp; If the players got together and all agreed upfront to play characters with a specific role and you do not optimize towards that role you are to a degree breaking that social contract.&nbsp; Most games I play are not like that though.&nbsp; Most are &quot;play what you got&quot;.&nbsp; In that case the opposite is almost true.&nbsp; If we are playing a 3-person party with 2 melee battlemasters and a Barbarian then everyone &quot;optimizing&quot; will actually hurt the group, and picking up a &quot;terrible&quot; featlike Magic Iniate for healing word or ritual caster is going to generate a lot more value for the group.&nbsp; If it is a 10 person party with specialists for every single thing they may come across, then not optimizing does &quot;hurt the party&quot;.&nbsp; In either of those extremes though you are playing you, you are not playing &quot;the party&quot; so it is really not relevant if it hurts the group.#2 Is not true either.&nbsp; I do find the optimizers, particularly those who take multiple high-impact melee feats (crusher, PAM, GWM) paint themselves into a corner in combat.&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't think that causes roleplay problems other than it limits how they fight.&nbsp; Warlocks can be in the same boat with EB.What players play should be up to them.&nbsp; Sometimes when DMing with young (teen) players I have to tell players &quot;you be you&quot;.&nbsp; If the cleric does not want to prepare healing spells that is his choice, if you think the party needs more healing them you can take a level or two in a class with healing spells.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8680692, member: 7030563"] I don't agree with either of those principals. #1 it depends entirely on the game, the social contract and really the size of the party. If the players got together and all agreed upfront to play characters with a specific role and you do not optimize towards that role you are to a degree breaking that social contract. Most games I play are not like that though. Most are "play what you got". In that case the opposite is almost true. If we are playing a 3-person party with 2 melee battlemasters and a Barbarian then everyone "optimizing" will actually hurt the group, and picking up a "terrible" featlike Magic Iniate for healing word or ritual caster is going to generate a lot more value for the group. If it is a 10 person party with specialists for every single thing they may come across, then not optimizing does "hurt the party". In either of those extremes though you are playing you, you are not playing "the party" so it is really not relevant if it hurts the group. #2 Is not true either. I do find the optimizers, particularly those who take multiple high-impact melee feats (crusher, PAM, GWM) paint themselves into a corner in combat. I don't think that causes roleplay problems other than it limits how they fight. Warlocks can be in the same boat with EB. What players play should be up to them. Sometimes when DMing with young (teen) players I have to tell players [I]"you be you"[/I]. If the cleric does not want to prepare healing spells that is [U]his[/U] choice, if [U]you[/U] think the party needs more healing them [U]you [/U]can take a level or two in a class with healing spells. [/QUOTE]

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