The Ultimate Delve and Forced Movement into Lava

[Zinovia]

There was an event called the Ultimate Delve at GenCon, which was a deliberately challenging timed event for a group of 6th level characters. Of all the groups that attempted it (in excess of 60 is what I heard), only two of them successfully completed all the encounters in the 4 hour time block. My own experience with it was not what I would have hoped, for a couple of reasons.

Strike 1:
Since I didn't happen to know a single person going to GenCon, I didn't have the option of signing up for this event with a full group, knowing that we'd have a well-balanced party with great synergy. Instead, our group was thrown together from people who had tickets to the event, but not a full party. We wound up having no ranged attacks to speak of.

Strike 2:
None of us had really played these characters in advance. Most tried to take their turns quickly, but there was some definite mulling over of powers going on. This is not an option in the Ultimate Delve. You need to use those precious seconds wisely if you are to have a shot at beating the event.

Strike 3, you're out!:
In the first encounter, there was some magma. There was also a foe that could force move characters, and could fly. And us with nothing but basic ranged attacks. That all would have been bad enough, but the DM running it made a ruling that I believe to be wrong. He forced characters into the magma repeatedly without allowing a saving throw to fall prone in the last safe square.

Naturally, this was immediately questioned by one of the players, but he said something like "Everyone asks that, but it only applies if you are being pushed off a cliff or into a pit". We're on the clock, don't have the entire D&D reference library with us, and continue on to lose that encounter based on time - but we would have had a far better chance and expended far fewer healing surges and powers had the magma not been the biggest damage dealer in the fight. Oh yeah, there were also immobilizes being thrown around, in part from some cockatrices. So moving away from the magma was trickier than you'd think, especially when we're trying to save the people who have fallen in already.

I leave the delve I paid $6 for after only an hour. "Don't worry," assured the DM as he was packing up his stuff. "You had no chance whatsoever of beating the second encounter without some good ranged damage." He described a little bit of the tricky second fight with webs and flying stuff. He's right, we would have had no chance. How comforting to know that even if we'd beaten the first fight, we'd have lost early in the second.

After the con when I had my books again, my inner rules lawyer demanded that I look up the rules about forced movement and hazardous terrain. Sure enough:

Catching Yourself: If you're forced over a precipice or pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall.

Was he actually right? As a DM myself, that went against my every instinct of how the rules were intended to work. What difference if I push you off a cliff or into a pool of seething magma? Both inflict potentially the same damage and cause similar problems getting back into the fight.

Then, my husband, clever man that he is, found the following in the DMG:

Hindering Terrain: Forced movement can force targets into hindering terrain (page 61). Targets forced into hindering terrain receive a saving throw immediately before entering the unsafe square they are forced into. Success leaves the target prone at the edge of the square before entering the unsafe square.
Hindering Terrain: Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight.

There is the rule I was looking for and had memories of having read at some point! I was vindicated! Still lost the Delve though. It's too bad that the PH, the book that we all turn to for the nitty gritty combat rulings, was unclear and only specified saving to fall prone at the edge of pits and precipices, rather than any hindering terrain. That's where the mistake came into this.

As for the Ultimate Delve, my recommendations are that you not enter it unless you know a group of people willing to join you. Make your characters in advance. Practice playing through some fights with them. Get familiar with your powers. Run a timer while you play, so that you can speed up combats. While it wasn't described explicitly as being a competition, the tense atmosphere and perceived pressure to act quickly and effectively on each turn made it feel that way. If you don't like competitions, stay away from it.

And whatever you do, don't let the DM repeatedly push your characters into the magma! Bring your DMG with you to prove it.

 

[Dr_Sage]

And whatever you do, don't let the DM repeatedly push your characters into the magma! Bring your DMG with you to prove it.

Good advice.

I would never ever trown rules in the face of my DM friends... but if there is a paid competition... makes sense to bring powerplayer friends as well.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yeah DMs make mistakes too...

Even at paid events. As the "DM is always right" you don't get your money back.

That's just life. Hope you had a good time anyway and here's hoping you have better luck with your home game DM!

 

[Zinovia]

I am my home game DM.

I understand that the people running LFR games and the delves at GenCon were all volunteers who spent many hours running games for other people. Having run a number of conventions myself, I understand the work involved, so thank you everyone who volunteers their precious time at conventions. You make it possible.

DM's do make mistakes, whether in home games or in officially sponsored events at cons. Personally I don't mind being corrected when I make mistakes with the rules, so long as it doesn't turn into a lengthy interruption of the session. We can talk about it afterwards. I will listen, but my final ruling is final.

In this case, playing it by the rules including what's in the DMG would have had an enormous impact on the fight. We'd have moved away from the lava if we weren't trying to heal people stuck in it. Given the text in the PH regarding forced movement, I'm not at all surprised that he ruled it that way.

As most people expect to find all the rules to run combats in the Player's Handbook, it might help if the language there were clarified with regard to this particular issue. What with WotC's lengthy to-do list and all, I don't expect to see anything done along those lines, so I felt it was worth posting just in case anyone else had experienced a similar issue with forced movement. Also I wanted to talk a little bit about my experience with the Ultimate Delve, which was fun, for the short time it lasted. Just don't enter it without knowing what you're getting into, and you'll be fine.

I would recommend the normal delves that are run at some of the big cons - those are shorter and 2 of the 3 that I played were very fun. One of them was less so because I felt the DM was pressuring us to move faster. He kept asking "Are you done yet?" repeatedly and I forgot to use a minor action on one turn that would have helped because of him breathing down my neck (metaphorically). The other two DM's were cheerful and nice about running the delves. We beat one, but not the second, but it didn't matter. I didn't feel pressured at all. Playing on the clock is an interesting experience.

 

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by Player's Handbook pg 286
Catching Yourself: If you're forced over a precipice or pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall.

One of the definitions (it is a broader one) of the word "precipice" is a hazard. I would rule personally that since they didn't say "If you're forced into a position where you would take fall more than 1 square.", I would say that the intention was to allow a save for naturally occurring hazardous zones. The reason you shouldn't allow a save for non-naturally occuring hazardous zones is because they are combatant

 

[Eldorian]

What are the rules for Lava? I thought it was, if you fall into lava, you die. No save.

 

[Zinovia]

One of the definitions (it is a broader one) of the word "precipice" is a hazard. <snip> The reason you shouldn't allow a save for non-naturally occuring hazardous zones is because they are combatant

I was not aware of that definition of the word precipice, thanks for pointing that out. On the other hand, I don't think the DM of that game was aware of it either - for most people, a precipice is synonymous with a cliff. I do agree that hazards caused by powers are different and shouldn't allow the save to fall prone at the edge. That should be reserved for pre-existing terrain features such as magma.

What are the rules for Lava? I thought it was, if you fall into lava, you die. No save.

I can't find anything in the way of official rules in the Compendium with regard to the effects of lava or magma, other than the radius of light they create.

In the Ultimate Delve, the effect was to cause some amount of damage, and it required people to make a check to climb out (athletics I think?).

It's not like this glitch was a big issue for me. Participating was still fun, and worth trying. I was worried about how well I would do when under time pressure, but I was far from the slowest at the table. The biggest problem we had stemmed from the nature of our hastily assembled pick-up group party with no ranged attacks (other than basic). I'd recommend it if you have friends going to the same event and you can bring a balanced party. Then get ready to stay focused, move quickly, and kick some butt!

 

[DonAdam]

The official rules for lava transcend all editions and systems.

But your GM hosed you on the "no save to keep from falling in."

I like the timed events. Yes, you need to make decisions quickly. Part of me considers that a feature, not a bug. As long as the DM is calling out who is "on deck" (next in the initiative order after the current person's turn) players should be able to decide what they want to do by the time their turn comes up.

 

[Zinovia]

Oooh, thanks for the link. Thanks to this highly endorsed supplement I will now have no question of how to handle it should characters in my group encounter lava, magma, or superheated rock.