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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 3133067" data-attributes="member: 10397">But then we again go into the cycle of who decides what is or isnt a flaw or what criteria should be used, and how those criteria should be judged, as we've already discussed several times. You speak of a successful representation of the form...the trouble is, people have different ideas of what the form is or should be, and/or what constitutes success within it. Yes, there is usualy a concensus, but theres also usually a substantial minority that disagrees with said concensus. What you call objective standards are by and large just a set of opinions that most, but not all people accept, save for a very few things, of which there are rarely enough of in a work to make it "objectively bad"Now in the case of music, there is a dual aspect...performance and composition. I'd say a musical performance could be more or less objectively bad...if the wrong notes are played or played in the wrong order, flat when they shouldnt be etc. But the composition end is subjective (again realizing there are criteria that most people accept...but not all).I also, as I've said before, believe that purpose has a lot to do with it. Now I realize you seperate purpose from quality across the board, and I dont, but even within that I will agree that a piece of art that sets forth with a certain purpose can usualy be deemed to have succeeded or failed in that purpose, or at the very least defined as objectively worse than a piece that suceeded better at the same purpose, as with Smurfy's dog painting. And so again we come to, what is the purpose of a given work? Well I could be wrong, but usualy the purpose is to be enjoyed, to satisfy the creators creative impulses, and some times to make a statement or convey a messageNow what you seem to be getting at is your conception of "craft" as being seperate from all other factors. But again it comes back to purpose...you can have your purpose to be crafting a work that is the best crafted possible based on a certain set of standards, and call it good or bad based on wether it suceeds or not, but the thing is, and my big point is *theres more than one set of valid standards*</blockquote>

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