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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7190128" data-attributes="member: 20323">I've been overhauling my redesign to slim it down to something more in the ballpark of 8-10 pages (which is about on par for clerics, wizards, and paladins in the PHB).One of my dilemmas was the amount of space some of the talents were taking up – they were just too involved and wordy. For example, I had several wordy Archery talents because I was trying to avoid making subclasses based on particular fighting styles. It's possible, however, that "Archer" would be an exception to that rule.In reexamining the subclasses I'm using, I realized some things...[SECTION]Old Subclasses:Borderlands GuardCavalierDestined HeroMonster SlayerSwashbucklerVeteranWarlordWeapon Master[/SECTION]First, "Weapon Master" is redundant to what the fighter is already described as in the PHB (and the concept flies in the face of my goal to give more narrative identity to the subclasses).Second, "Swashbuckler" is already a roguish archetype presented in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, so at the very least that needs a name change, if not a conceptual change.So I went back to AD&D2e's kits to see if there were obvious concepts I was missing...Gladiators, Mercenaries, that sort of thing.[SECTION]List of Warrior Kits (non race-specific / archetypes that reappear in books)AmazonBarbarianBeast-RiderBerserkerCavalierGladiator / Pit Fighter (CBoHumanoids) / Complete Gladiator's HandbookMyrmidon / Mercenary (CBoHumanoids) / Mercenary (CBoGnomes&Halflings)Noble WarriorPeasant HeroPirate/OutlawSamuraiSavageSwashbucklerWilderness WarriorDwarf Warrior / Elf Warrior / Halfling Fighter = Sharpshooter / Archer[/SECTION]Some don't fit our modern sensibilities. "Amazons" are skilled women warriors, not a subclass. Likewise "Savage" is a politically loaded term – and if it's going to appear at all, would fit the Barbarian class better. Not to mention Beast-Riders and Berserkers also are a better fit for the Barbarian class. Noble Warrior is a fighter with the Noble background, Peasant Hero is a fighter with the Folk Hero background, and any PC can be a Pirate by taking the Sailor Pirate variant background. It's questionable whether "Samurai" merits inclusion since it could be argued to be a fighter with the Noble Knight variant background, but if it were to be included probably in some kind of Oriental Adventures / Rokugan supplement is where it belongs...I could be wrong.So what does that leave?Cavalier is one with a lot of D&D history that made this list of kits, so confirmation for me to include it. Gladiator seems to be a major concept that I'd previously left out, so I'll look at including that. Likewise Myrmidon/Mercenary are similar concepts that appear in the "Complete" books, though may be sufficiently covered by my Veteran subclass; I'll have a look, but suspect at most I'll be adapting one trait from the kit, if anything.Wilderness Warrior is close to my Borderlands Guard concept, and I think my concept has a stronger narrative draw, so at most I may incorporate a trait from that kit, if anything.Sharpshooter/Archer also has significant presence, and was one of the subclasses that appeared in the playtest...IIRC Mearls said it lacked popularity of other subclasses. But there may be room to incorporate that, I'll see.</blockquote>

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