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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5571176" data-attributes="member: 48965">Hey it's cool, we disagree as I feel it is a part of roleplaying as a whole.  Again cool, that is why in my previous post I said I wasn't even sure it was an objectively measurable thing... however there was still some immersion going on here... whether it was immersion in the world, the situations, your character or whatever so I don't think we are arguing at cross purposes so far.  Notice you said "almost" purely meta-game... so again their is still a component, even if miniscule, of immersion.  Ok, now I'm going to have to disagree... I am not conflating immersion with simulation. I am saying that simulationist games tend to more readily keep the 4th wall between those interacting and experiencing the game vs. those creating and running the game more distinct. Furthermore I think that this is what most casual players want out of a roleplaying game and find it easier to immerse themselves in it... especially since this is probably what they are most familiar with from other media such as movies and console roleplaying games.  Hmm, this is irrelevant to my point. I never argued that some people can't be immersed in narrativist or gamist games... I only argued that for some or many they find it harder than in simulationist games... I then cited the thread to show that there were actually people who do find it harder.  In my previous post I already stated that the amount of immersion necessary for some vs. others was subjective... so I'm not sure what you are arguing for here.   And yet there is still a certain level of immersion even in avatar play... as you stated above... so again your point is lost on me since I conceded it was subjective in my earlier post.   Yes...yes it is... I'd love to see a quote of where I did this.</blockquote>

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