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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5577589" data-attributes="member: 87792">Which is why we have skill challenges.&nbsp;&nbsp;And here we disagree on how broad skills should be seen as.&nbsp;And as I have said repeatedly, crossroads challenges are all about your primary skill.&nbsp; You'd be trying to outplay the Devil's guitarist in a game of Guitars and Groupies.&nbsp; A game in which there would be at least as much focus on music rules as on combat.&nbsp; In no edition of D&amp;D has this ever been the case.&nbsp; Now a crossroads challenge with a guitar in Dogs in the Vineyard as I keep pointing out would be fun.&nbsp; Just adding in a guitar skill in no way has the rules supporting what should be a pivotal moment for the character.&nbsp;&nbsp;Oh, she was brave.&nbsp; I don't dispute that.&nbsp; And it's a great story.&nbsp; Just one unsuited for Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp; Any edition.&nbsp;&nbsp;Proficiency with magic, whip, and rapier.&nbsp; Ability to wear chain mail.&nbsp; Medium BAB.&nbsp; Yup, that all fits...&nbsp; The bard is the best character concept patch in 3.X.&nbsp; Even my wizards normally ended up as bards (loremasters, illusionists, and non-vancian).&nbsp; I'd have called her an expert myself with Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge (Other), Perform (Storytelling), Diplomacy, Sense motive.&nbsp; A NPC class.&nbsp;Exactly!&nbsp; And in 3.X, the rogue's strongest ability is being Stabbity Mc Stabbity.&nbsp; The fighter's strongest ability is being ... a fighter.&nbsp; The wizard's strongest ability is magic.&nbsp; (As is the cleric's).&nbsp; You're talking a group of adventurers, not a rock band here.&nbsp; Which is the point.&nbsp; The only class that can reasonably claim to not have the adventuring or combat as their specialty in 3.X is the bard.&nbsp; It's a game about what it's about and system matters.&nbsp; D&amp;D is not GURPS.&nbsp;&nbsp;And they aren't adventuring skills.&nbsp; 4e is a game about adventurers.&nbsp; 3e is a game about adventurers that nods towards being GURPS - and ends up with IMO a tangled mix of systems treading on each others toes.&nbsp;You mean all PCs are in the hands of the DM.&nbsp; Oh noes!&nbsp; And there are explicit rules in 4e for using lower target numbers because someone's experienced and practiced at something even if you don't use free training in things unlikely to be that relevant.&nbsp; A good flower arrangement is easy for someone who practices it and average for someone who doesn't.&nbsp; Both terms of art.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5577589, member: 87792"] Which is why we have skill challenges. And here we disagree on how broad skills should be seen as. And as I have said repeatedly, crossroads challenges are all about your primary skill. You'd be trying to outplay the Devil's guitarist in a game of Guitars and Groupies. A game in which there would be at least as much focus on music rules as on combat. In no edition of D&D has this [I]ever[/I] been the case. Now a crossroads challenge with a guitar in [I]Dogs in the Vineyard[/I] as I keep pointing out would be fun. Just adding in a guitar skill in no way has the rules supporting what should be a pivotal moment for the character. Oh, she was brave. I don't dispute that. And it's a great story. Just one unsuited for Dungeons and Dragons. Any edition. Proficiency with magic, whip, and rapier. Ability to wear chain mail. Medium BAB. Yup, that all fits... The bard is the best character concept patch in 3.X. Even my wizards normally ended up as bards (loremasters, illusionists, and non-vancian). I'd have called her an expert myself with Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge (Other), Perform (Storytelling), Diplomacy, Sense motive. A NPC class. Exactly! And in 3.X, the rogue's strongest ability is being Stabbity Mc Stabbity. The fighter's strongest ability is being ... a fighter. The wizard's strongest ability is magic. (As is the cleric's). You're talking a group of adventurers, not a rock band here. Which is the [I]point[/I]. The [I]only[/I] class that can reasonably claim to not have the adventuring or combat as their specialty in 3.X is the bard. It's a game about what it's about and system matters. D&D is not GURPS. And they aren't adventuring skills. 4e is a game about adventurers. 3e is a game about adventurers that nods towards being GURPS - and ends up with IMO a tangled mix of systems treading on each others toes. You mean all PCs are in the hands of the DM. Oh noes! And there are [I]explicit[/I] rules in 4e for using lower target numbers because someone's experienced and practiced at something even if you don't use free training in things unlikely to be that relevant. A good flower arrangement is [I]easy[/I] for someone who practices it and [I]average[/I] for someone who doesn't. Both terms of art. [/QUOTE]

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