Ry
Explorer
The Whitehall Club writes [(3⅞/0º)^½]ə
I made up some gamers for a game I wrote a while ago, and as I was trying to come up with my ultralite 20 in steps from d20 I kept coming back to the idea of them talking it out. So here's Travis and Andy from the Whitehall gaming club sitting down to figure out what they want out of d20.
[sblock=Enter Andy](In a cafeteria at work; Travis is looking down at spread out over 2 tables.)
Andy: Hey Trav.
Travis (looking down at table): Hey Andy.
Andy: Light day eh?
Travis: Yeah, I’ve got nothing till the project requirement doc comes back, so here I am.
Andy: Same here. So… RPGs?
Travis: As you see.
Andy: What are you working on?
Travis: It’s dumb – I promised myself I wouldn’t try to do this, but I’m trying to change D&D into what I want again.
Andy: Nothing wrong with D&D. And if there is anything just switch editions.
Travis: I don’t think any edition is exactly what I want out of d20. 4th edition sounds cool but I don’t think it’s going to be the magic bullet either.
Andy: Well, probably not, especially when your better half GMs.
Travis: Yeah, lite is Jan’s tastes.
Andy: Well, what about just using E6 and Raising the Stakes with 4e?
Travis: I have this feeling that we won’t get what we want unless we know what we want and build it. E6 and Raising the Stakes feel like… the first step, you know? TRAPs help too, but it’s still clunky.
Andy: We get rid of levels 7 up, all the problem spells, and we add in bets and things and you’re still thinking it’s clunky?
Travis: Yep. There’s too many … things on this character sheet. We can do better.
Andy: Stronger. Faster.
Travis: More streamlined. Too much of this stuff is woven together without just being unified.
Andy: That’s because this edition is like delicate lace. Beautiful in its intricacy.
Travis: Maybe, but I want something else. I want a t-shirt, or maybe a heavy duty wool coat.
Andy: Thong?
Travis: No.
Andy: Thong?
Travis (glare)
Andy: Alright, no thong.[/sblock][sblock=Getting down to work]Travis (looks back down at the pages)
Andy: What are you thinking?
Travis: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is how the stats look after you’ve turned everything into Players Roll All the Dice. Let’s say you ditch stats as well, you’ve just got the modifiers now.
Andy: So everything becomes a modifier.
Travis: Right. When a player attacks or defends or saves or casts a spell, they roll 1d20 and add modifiers.
Andy: And off the bat we’re a little different from 4e.
Travis: Exactly. Hands-free Gming, well, it’s not going away now that we’re used to it. That made my life a lot easier.
Andy: Sure. But we could use the same math to do players roll all the dice in 4e.
Travis: True, but as I said I want the game built around what we like right from the start.
Andy: Fine – fine. Yeah.
Travis: So the modifiers. They all look so similar.
Andy: Yeah, everything is stat modifier + level. Except saves and spell effects, and base attack bonus if you’re crappy in base attack bonus.
Travis: Exactly. But what if spells were Int+Level versus your save?
Andy: Well, the saves would have to be Dex+Level.
Travis: Exactly!
Andy: Exactly what?
Travis: What’s a good attack score equal to, say for a fighter.
Andy: Strength plus Level.
Travis: And a skill? Assume we go max ranks.
Andy: Stat modifier plus level. Plus three.
Travis: If we got rid of that plus three though, and we did it uniformly across the skills, then the skills opposed would be on an equal playing field.
Andy: You mean, wait. You’re saying that if you take off 3 from Hide and Move Silently it doesn’t matter because you did it to both?
Travis: Well, it doesn’t matter because I also did it to Spot and Listen.
Andy: Oh, I see. But there’s now a lot less difference between untrained and trained.
Travis: So why not give a -3 penalty for untrained skill use?
Andy: How is that any easier?
Travis: Well, take a look at this:[/sblock][sblock=Travis's page]
[/sblock][sblock=Trying to square the circle?]Andy: Five saves? I mean, six saves? How does that make it easier?
Travis: Think about what we don’t need if we do it this way. Skills can just be a list of the things the character is skilled at with mention of which stat applies. Melee attacks are Might actions, ranged attacks are Reflex actions.
Andy: Except for finesse.
Travis: Sure, that would make your melee attack a Reflex action.
Andy: They’re not really saves, then, are they? They’re like … well, skills or stats.
Travis: Let’s call them prowess.
Andy: What about defense?
Travis: Well, you can defend with Reflex or Fortitude, depending on what you’re wearing.
Andy: OK, that makes my brain hurt. How does that make any sense?
Travis: Well, for example Iron Heroes has base defense bonus that goes up with level.
Andy: Alright, I can see that. That adds to AC, and armor doesn’t normally add to AC in Iron Heroes.
Travis: Right. So you’re with me that we could go Reflex as defense.
Andy: In players roll all the dice land, if armor was like in Iron Heroes, yeah, I can see that. Heavier armor limits your DEX bonus, lighter armor doesn’t provide as much variable soak. But I hate that idea – it takes even longer to resolve an attack when you’re doing armor as DR.
Travis: Agreed. We need to give heavy armor types something. If you’re cool with it, I’d like to get rid of the reliance on items where I can.
Andy: What are you thinking?
Travis: One more transformation on the armor idea – if you’re in heavy armor, you get to use Fortitude instead of Reflex.
Andy: So if you’re wearing light armor you use Reflex and you have the benefit of the fact that Reflex is useful for other things, and if you wear Fortitude, I mean heavy armor, you use Fortitude and that’s great because if you’ve pumped your Fortitude you’ve got lots of hit points.
Travis: Right.
Andy: Now it seems like… well, armor doesn’t matter very much. There’s a difference between light armor types and heavy armor types but not much mechanical difference between one set of armor and another within those groups. In fact, there’s no reason for light armor types not to go around naked.
Travis: Well, there’s lots of ad-hoc circumstance bonuses that can come into play. Like, it’s better to wear full plate than a breastplate when you’re getting pelted by blowdarts from all directions. And it’s better to be in leather if you go flying, and it’s worse to be in heavy armor if you’re thrown into a river.
Andy: Heh.
Travis: I know, good times. But focus, Andy!
Andy: Right. Well, that bit about the armor seems handwavy to me, I’m not sure it holds up as a decent transformation or as something that has been done in a d20 game. On the other hand, there’s plenty of other games where defense essentially is on the same scale as attack. Also there’s lots of games where there aren’t rules for armor, or those rules are pretty inconsequential, so I think the game will still be playable – just not an emulation of how it’s done in 3.5e.
Travis: Yeah, I see your point. I definitely want to give players cool abilities and bonuses for finding swanky gear.
Andy: Oh, yeah. None of this has really touched on magic bonuses and stuff, we can still have that right?
Travis: Correct.[/sblock][sblock=Other issues]Andy: Alright, so if we cast spells in this system, I guess that’s just the caster’s Insight action against your appropriate save?
Travis: Right. Magical power is tied to level like everything else.
Andy: So no more crappy first level spells that everything and its dog can save against.
Travis: True. Although that wasn’t a problem in the E6 game.
Andy: Still, it makes it easy. Clerics make Will actions agains the enemy’s save stat. Cool.
Travis: Thanks.
Andy: I assume this means that Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will are no longer viable feats.
Travis: You assume correctly. Obviously these numbers are a lot more powerful now, they’re not just for saves.
Andy: Here’s one, how does grappling work? Sounds like it should be Might or Reflex based but do you have those special size modifiers?
Travis: I’m not particularly keen on 3.5e’s approach to grappling. I’m certainly not enamored with special size modifiers. I’d rather just handle grappling as Might versus Might or Reflex, defender’s option.
Andy: I think this is all I can get my head around in one sitting. We should talk about combat actions again later, I think you’ll want to streamline that too.
Travis: Yeah, I have some ideas but let’s let this sink in.[/sblock]
I made up some gamers for a game I wrote a while ago, and as I was trying to come up with my ultralite 20 in steps from d20 I kept coming back to the idea of them talking it out. So here's Travis and Andy from the Whitehall gaming club sitting down to figure out what they want out of d20.
[sblock=Enter Andy](In a cafeteria at work; Travis is looking down at spread out over 2 tables.)
Andy: Hey Trav.
Travis (looking down at table): Hey Andy.
Andy: Light day eh?
Travis: Yeah, I’ve got nothing till the project requirement doc comes back, so here I am.
Andy: Same here. So… RPGs?
Travis: As you see.
Andy: What are you working on?
Travis: It’s dumb – I promised myself I wouldn’t try to do this, but I’m trying to change D&D into what I want again.
Andy: Nothing wrong with D&D. And if there is anything just switch editions.
Travis: I don’t think any edition is exactly what I want out of d20. 4th edition sounds cool but I don’t think it’s going to be the magic bullet either.
Andy: Well, probably not, especially when your better half GMs.
Travis: Yeah, lite is Jan’s tastes.
Andy: Well, what about just using E6 and Raising the Stakes with 4e?
Travis: I have this feeling that we won’t get what we want unless we know what we want and build it. E6 and Raising the Stakes feel like… the first step, you know? TRAPs help too, but it’s still clunky.
Andy: We get rid of levels 7 up, all the problem spells, and we add in bets and things and you’re still thinking it’s clunky?
Travis: Yep. There’s too many … things on this character sheet. We can do better.
Andy: Stronger. Faster.
Travis: More streamlined. Too much of this stuff is woven together without just being unified.
Andy: That’s because this edition is like delicate lace. Beautiful in its intricacy.
Travis: Maybe, but I want something else. I want a t-shirt, or maybe a heavy duty wool coat.
Andy: Thong?
Travis: No.
Andy: Thong?
Travis (glare)
Andy: Alright, no thong.[/sblock][sblock=Getting down to work]Travis (looks back down at the pages)
Andy: What are you thinking?
Travis: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is how the stats look after you’ve turned everything into Players Roll All the Dice. Let’s say you ditch stats as well, you’ve just got the modifiers now.
Andy: So everything becomes a modifier.
Travis: Right. When a player attacks or defends or saves or casts a spell, they roll 1d20 and add modifiers.
Andy: And off the bat we’re a little different from 4e.
Travis: Exactly. Hands-free Gming, well, it’s not going away now that we’re used to it. That made my life a lot easier.
Andy: Sure. But we could use the same math to do players roll all the dice in 4e.
Travis: True, but as I said I want the game built around what we like right from the start.
Andy: Fine – fine. Yeah.
Travis: So the modifiers. They all look so similar.
Andy: Yeah, everything is stat modifier + level. Except saves and spell effects, and base attack bonus if you’re crappy in base attack bonus.
Travis: Exactly. But what if spells were Int+Level versus your save?
Andy: Well, the saves would have to be Dex+Level.
Travis: Exactly!
Andy: Exactly what?
Travis: What’s a good attack score equal to, say for a fighter.
Andy: Strength plus Level.
Travis: And a skill? Assume we go max ranks.
Andy: Stat modifier plus level. Plus three.
Travis: If we got rid of that plus three though, and we did it uniformly across the skills, then the skills opposed would be on an equal playing field.
Andy: You mean, wait. You’re saying that if you take off 3 from Hide and Move Silently it doesn’t matter because you did it to both?
Travis: Well, it doesn’t matter because I also did it to Spot and Listen.
Andy: Oh, I see. But there’s now a lot less difference between untrained and trained.
Travis: So why not give a -3 penalty for untrained skill use?
Andy: How is that any easier?
Travis: Well, take a look at this:[/sblock][sblock=Travis's page]
Code:
Level 6
STR +4 Might +10
DEX +3 Reflex +9
CON +2 Fortitude +8
INT +1 Insight +7
WIS +0 Will +6
CHA -1 Style +5Travis: Think about what we don’t need if we do it this way. Skills can just be a list of the things the character is skilled at with mention of which stat applies. Melee attacks are Might actions, ranged attacks are Reflex actions.
Andy: Except for finesse.
Travis: Sure, that would make your melee attack a Reflex action.
Andy: They’re not really saves, then, are they? They’re like … well, skills or stats.
Travis: Let’s call them prowess.
Andy: What about defense?
Travis: Well, you can defend with Reflex or Fortitude, depending on what you’re wearing.
Andy: OK, that makes my brain hurt. How does that make any sense?
Travis: Well, for example Iron Heroes has base defense bonus that goes up with level.
Andy: Alright, I can see that. That adds to AC, and armor doesn’t normally add to AC in Iron Heroes.
Travis: Right. So you’re with me that we could go Reflex as defense.
Andy: In players roll all the dice land, if armor was like in Iron Heroes, yeah, I can see that. Heavier armor limits your DEX bonus, lighter armor doesn’t provide as much variable soak. But I hate that idea – it takes even longer to resolve an attack when you’re doing armor as DR.
Travis: Agreed. We need to give heavy armor types something. If you’re cool with it, I’d like to get rid of the reliance on items where I can.
Andy: What are you thinking?
Travis: One more transformation on the armor idea – if you’re in heavy armor, you get to use Fortitude instead of Reflex.
Andy: So if you’re wearing light armor you use Reflex and you have the benefit of the fact that Reflex is useful for other things, and if you wear Fortitude, I mean heavy armor, you use Fortitude and that’s great because if you’ve pumped your Fortitude you’ve got lots of hit points.
Travis: Right.
Andy: Now it seems like… well, armor doesn’t matter very much. There’s a difference between light armor types and heavy armor types but not much mechanical difference between one set of armor and another within those groups. In fact, there’s no reason for light armor types not to go around naked.
Travis: Well, there’s lots of ad-hoc circumstance bonuses that can come into play. Like, it’s better to wear full plate than a breastplate when you’re getting pelted by blowdarts from all directions. And it’s better to be in leather if you go flying, and it’s worse to be in heavy armor if you’re thrown into a river.
Andy: Heh.
Travis: I know, good times. But focus, Andy!
Andy: Right. Well, that bit about the armor seems handwavy to me, I’m not sure it holds up as a decent transformation or as something that has been done in a d20 game. On the other hand, there’s plenty of other games where defense essentially is on the same scale as attack. Also there’s lots of games where there aren’t rules for armor, or those rules are pretty inconsequential, so I think the game will still be playable – just not an emulation of how it’s done in 3.5e.
Travis: Yeah, I see your point. I definitely want to give players cool abilities and bonuses for finding swanky gear.
Andy: Oh, yeah. None of this has really touched on magic bonuses and stuff, we can still have that right?
Travis: Correct.[/sblock][sblock=Other issues]Andy: Alright, so if we cast spells in this system, I guess that’s just the caster’s Insight action against your appropriate save?
Travis: Right. Magical power is tied to level like everything else.
Andy: So no more crappy first level spells that everything and its dog can save against.
Travis: True. Although that wasn’t a problem in the E6 game.
Andy: Still, it makes it easy. Clerics make Will actions agains the enemy’s save stat. Cool.
Travis: Thanks.
Andy: I assume this means that Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will are no longer viable feats.
Travis: You assume correctly. Obviously these numbers are a lot more powerful now, they’re not just for saves.
Andy: Here’s one, how does grappling work? Sounds like it should be Might or Reflex based but do you have those special size modifiers?
Travis: I’m not particularly keen on 3.5e’s approach to grappling. I’m certainly not enamored with special size modifiers. I’d rather just handle grappling as Might versus Might or Reflex, defender’s option.
Andy: I think this is all I can get my head around in one sitting. We should talk about combat actions again later, I think you’ll want to streamline that too.
Travis: Yeah, I have some ideas but let’s let this sink in.[/sblock]
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