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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5679322" data-attributes="member: 35909">They have the worst saves in the game.They're tremendously MAD (only Monk and Ninja are worse).They had almost every means of ranged SA taken away, and fell behind the other melee classes for melee damage/suvivability (just look at Fighter, Paladin, and even Barbarian and TWF Ranger compared to 3E).&nbsp; The medium BAB also severely crimps their melee ability.The skill change BADLY destroyed much of their niche protection as being the &quot;skill guy.&quot;&nbsp; Now thanks to their MAD, they're lucky to be the best at any skill at all, other than Disable Device (partly due to the trapfinding bonus, partly because no one else really would care enough to put ranks in it).It's more a case of Rogue not being very good at anything at all.&nbsp; The game rewards specialization, being the second best in the party at most roles isn't really that useful.&nbsp; Bard has always had a similar problem, but at least gets solid buffing and decent spellcasting to compensate.Now, I happen to really like rogues, and monks.&nbsp; So if this thread is about HATE, then my choice is Gunslinger, hands-down.&nbsp; It does pirouettes as it dances over a decade of broken rules precedents in its tango with its dance partner, &quot;my power is limited only by DM fiat,&quot; gaining grit points while doing so.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 5679322, member: 35909"] They have the worst saves in the game. They're tremendously MAD (only Monk and Ninja are worse). They had almost every means of ranged SA taken away, and fell behind the other melee classes for melee damage/suvivability (just look at Fighter, Paladin, and even Barbarian and TWF Ranger compared to 3E). The medium BAB also severely crimps their melee ability. The skill change BADLY destroyed much of their niche protection as being the "skill guy." Now thanks to their MAD, they're lucky to be the best at any skill at all, other than Disable Device (partly due to the trapfinding bonus, partly because no one else really would care enough to put ranks in it). It's more a case of Rogue not being very good at anything at all. The game rewards specialization, being the second best in the party at most roles isn't really that useful. Bard has always had a similar problem, but at least gets solid buffing and decent spellcasting to compensate. Now, I happen to really like rogues, and monks. So if this thread is about HATE, then my choice is Gunslinger, hands-down. It does pirouettes as it dances over a decade of broken rules precedents in its tango with its dance partner, "my power is limited only by DM fiat," gaining grit points while doing so. [/QUOTE]

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