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Message: <blockquote data-quote="spinozajack" data-source="post: 6652143" data-attributes="member: 6794198">Again, pretty clear that you don't see the difference between a system having extra support for minis optionally in the DMG through optional rules, and one that requires its use by assuming it.For a fireball, knowing the exact range and radius in feet doesn't refer to a grid, and I can imagine quite well what a 20 foot diameter looks like, and imagine which enemies might be engulfed in it, even as a rough approximation of what I have in my mind's eye. Because, narratively speaking, you know whether the group you are targetting is bunched up, and I as the DM would know if the PCs are bunched up or could fit within 20 foot wide radius as well. That is definitely supportive of theater of the mind. Anything that enforces strict positioning in the rules, like flanking or facing or AoO triggers (move from this square to this other square? AoO, or retreat from enemy without using Disengage. Not the same kind of decision process, at all).I also find it funny that you think it's just "propaganda from an edition war" that makes people think that 4e fans prefer the use of minis whilst AD&D fans prefer not using them. I know this because I take what people say at face value, and that's indeed what they say. Also, it's what's written in the rules. I don't believe you can even try to play 4e combat without a grid, and certainly not play it effectively from the PC point of view. The game assumes one. The designers even admitted as such many times. I was paying attention when I watched the interviews with Mike Mearls on this issue, so yes, I do think you're living in a delusion if you expect anyone to believe that 4e doesn't assume a grid being used. That's total BS man. As does 3e for the most part. 5e took a step back and designed most of its core, non-optional combat rules and abilities to not use those kinds of things. I think it's you making this an edition warry kind of thing. Lots of people like the use of a grid, but also appreciate the fact that you can now run combat perfectly well without one. As you are yourself doing, by your own admission. I'm getting more and more the impression that you view everything through an edition war lens, where you, being a 4th edition fan, are being persecuted. But then even when you admit that 5e's design allows you more game flexibility, and that you are using it, you still don't admit it's because the game was designed that way. So you're just arguing in bad faith. Go ahead, keep seeing yourself as a persecuted minority here, it's just not true. I love minis too, but I absolutely am certain that 5e not forcing the use of one through adopting simpler rules that don't require precise positioning (and the overall lack of push / slide "powers") is a large reason for its success.The game design was validated by 150,000 public playtesters and now millions of satisfied customers. That is all the proof you need that it is a well-designed game for its intended market. Including 4e fans, who have also to a large extent jumped ship.</blockquote>

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