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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5553758" data-attributes="member: 87792">What you aren't resticted to, and this difference is critical, is restricted to the same number of powers per turn.  You litterbug with your minors as well as your other powers (and yes, I've got a currently active litterbug wizard).Me too.  But until they errata Twin Strike to adding +1[w] damage on the second hit (and reduce the immediates/minors they get) - which still makes it an extremely accurate at will, Rangers breaking powers like this are a fact of D&D.I never said that it was a good power on the average PC.  It just combos well.You mean they could have "pleased everyone" by leaving a segment of the market and the player base utterly unable to use a lot of the abilities of some of the new themes?  Your definition of everyone is nowhere near the same as mine.  And I like the idea of a fighter with the apprentice wizard theme who parted on good terms because he was inept or a thief with the order mage theme who has weak magic - but high political skill.And I dislike the idea of keeping all your class features, but replacing all your class powers with your theme.I never hoped you were.I agree the order adept needs to be wacked hard with the nerf bat and the animal master needs to be better at rescuing their animal.The thing is I look at these themes you dislike and see an awful lot of good.  In the order adept (or whatever he's called) I see a political member of the mage's guild or one through inheretence who isn't really a mage and doesn't weaken themself for joining the guild and doesn't end up looking like a wizard who dabbles.  That's huge and almost new to D&D.  The Apprentice Wizard, again, allows decent mechanical support for a backstory involving being a failed apprentice without locking up your feats (so you can actually multiclass somewhere else based on what you do in play).  Again, this is huge.  The alchemist just plain rocks (although is a part patch for 4e).  And the animal master is fun (although has issues) - and if you can't do anything with or take inspiration from a pet monkey with a fez you aren't trying.And it continues to do so.  Knights, Slayers, and Thieves are all gold - giving the less mechanically inclined people something to play.  I have no wish to ever play a slayer.  But I am not everyone - and some people are happier with slayers than with the original 4e classes.  It's great that they can have something for them.Likewise the Vampire.  It extends the game in ways I didn't expect.  And the Blackguard.  And I like the new mage schools in HoS.  And the gloom pact hexblade.  (I agree about the Binder).And these themes?  Just these four themes alone have given me more inspiration for characters, and more extension for what can readily be done than the entire list of Dark Sun themes.  "Athasian Minstrel" - as if we needed another excuse for PCs to asssassinate.  "Dune Trader" - the powers (other than the L2 Utility) do just about nothing to help you be a better trader.  Likewise "Wasteland Nomad".   They just try to tie you in to the concept by virtue of the name rather than extending the concepts.Agreed.  MM3 was great.  And Epic support currently is poor.Likewise.  But there are almost no themes I can say truly fit what I see as the requrements or extend what it's possible to build by much.  Other than adding a splash of casting or combat to people who would go all the other way.  I like the Veiled Alliance, the Templar, the Elemental Priest, and the Dune Trader.  And think that the Minstrel and the Gladiator (and arguably the Nomad although IMO that needs a re-fluff for reasons stated earlier) should both come with weapon proficiencies.  But then I'd attach wand proficiency to the apprentice wizard and the order mage (and the Veiled Alliance member and rods to the Templar)...I'd say with most of the crap removed.  You can't overwrite most of a class with your theme any more.  Your class is always the most important part.  (Yet another reason the Order Adept needs nerfing).A working monster builder and epic support, no.  But as I've said, I prefer these themes to the DS ones.  I consider them to be more thematically interesting and less overwhelming.  I like that there is a Vampire class - and one that can be left to the side.  I like the existance of the Slayer even if I have no wish to play one.</blockquote>

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