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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Doug McCrae" data-source="post: 3687923" data-attributes="member: 21169">The fighter in your example had a 15 cha, you consider that not to be a suboptimal choice? Fighters get so many feats, I would consider taking Skill Focus (Diplomacy) to be less suboptimal than putting a 15 in cha, when he needs it for str or con.Let's say the seducing fighter needs a 15 on his diplomacy check, or +5 if he takes 10. Lets assume he's human. At 1st level he has 12 skill points, if he has no int mod. He could easily afford to spend 4 on diplomacy for a +2 and take skill focus as one of his three feats for another +3, giving him the +5 he needs. He could spend another 4 skill points on knowledge (nobility) and then save his remaing two feats for useful combat stuff.This character is not far from being optimal, certainly still useful, and he's a fairly charming nobleman. Remember that diplomacy is a very useful skill anyway, so being good at it should cost him some resources. Admittedly that's not the case for knowledge (nobility) so he only takes +2, enough to pretend he's not a powergamer.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>