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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6017833" data-attributes="member: 87792">They make up some <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> they think would (a) be cool, (b) fit the game and (c) not fit any existing class.&nbsp; At least that's how it's meant to work.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is incredibly situational.&nbsp; What's your game about?&nbsp; And it's a mix of eyeballing, playtesting, and formulas to fit the game's intended playstyle.&nbsp;&nbsp;City of Heroes has on Hero side Tank, Scrapper (tough melee DPS), Blaster (squishy ranged DPS), Defender (Buffer/ranged DPS), Controller, and Kheldian (Formdancer/shifts from tank to ranged DPS and back).&nbsp; Villainside it has Controller and Blaster variants, Brute (Tank/scrapper hybrid), Hunter (Assassin with stealth skills - weak melee DPS when not cloaked but an impressive alpha strike), Mastermind (Pets), and Arachnos (Defender variant).&nbsp;Leverage (based on the con/heist show) has classes of Grifter, Hitter, Hacker, Mastermind, Thief.&nbsp; Notably it's a show about rogues and grifter, hacker, and thief would all be part of the rogue heading under a D&amp;D scheme but within the bounds of a game about long cons it makes sense to split them up.&nbsp;&nbsp;How they fit together.&nbsp; What they do.&nbsp; How they approach the world.&nbsp;&nbsp;Mages and Clerics are spectacularly broad classes.&nbsp; They both can excuse anything unless you start limiting magic.&nbsp; &nbsp;On the other hand, just using 4e classes, the Warlord is none of the above.&nbsp; You need to really squash a wire-fu monk to fit it into any orthodox class.&nbsp; Summoners are a problem case.&nbsp; Shapeshifters can be warriors or rogues depending how they are handled and what they shift into.&nbsp; And where do you fit bards?&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd start with <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/" target="_blank">Sirlin's &quot;Playing to Win&quot;</a> for generic game design, and for RPGs some of <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/" target="_blank">Ron Edwards essays</a> (weed them - he says a lot of interesting things but really overbuilds his cases) and <a href="http://www.sjgames.com/robinslaws/" target="_blank">Robin's Laws of good Gamesmastering</a> paying particular attention to player types - and how you satisfy a mix of types.&nbsp;&nbsp;Give magic rules.&nbsp; The more explicit and constraining the better.&nbsp;&nbsp;Conceptually.&nbsp; Does it fit what you want a rogue or warrior to be able to do?&nbsp;Role and fluff.&nbsp;&nbsp;Common.&nbsp; But not generally true.&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes.&nbsp;&nbsp;Not without magic.&nbsp; Although as I've mentioned Leverage uses Hitter, Hacker, Grifter, Mastermind, Thief.&nbsp; And there's nothing wrong with the 4e generic versions of Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6017833, member: 87792"] They make up some :):):):) they think would (a) be cool, (b) fit the game and (c) not fit any existing class. At least that's how it's meant to work. This is incredibly situational. What's your game about? And it's a mix of eyeballing, playtesting, and formulas to fit the game's intended playstyle. City of Heroes has on Hero side Tank, Scrapper (tough melee DPS), Blaster (squishy ranged DPS), Defender (Buffer/ranged DPS), Controller, and Kheldian (Formdancer/shifts from tank to ranged DPS and back). Villainside it has Controller and Blaster variants, Brute (Tank/scrapper hybrid), Hunter (Assassin with stealth skills - weak melee DPS when not cloaked but an impressive alpha strike), Mastermind (Pets), and Arachnos (Defender variant). Leverage (based on the con/heist show) has classes of Grifter, Hitter, Hacker, Mastermind, Thief. Notably it's a show about rogues and grifter, hacker, and thief would all be part of the rogue heading under a D&D scheme but within the bounds of a game about long cons it makes sense to split them up. How they fit together. What they do. How they approach the world. Mages and Clerics are spectacularly broad classes. They both can excuse anything unless you start limiting magic. On the other hand, just using 4e classes, the Warlord is none of the above. You need to really squash a wire-fu monk to fit it into any orthodox class. Summoners are a problem case. Shapeshifters can be warriors or rogues depending how they are handled and what they shift into. And where do you fit bards? I'd start with [URL="http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/"]Sirlin's "Playing to Win"[/URL] for generic game design, and for RPGs some of [URL="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/"]Ron Edwards essays[/URL] (weed them - he says a lot of interesting things but really overbuilds his cases) and [URL="http://www.sjgames.com/robinslaws/"]Robin's Laws of good Gamesmastering[/URL] paying particular attention to player types - and how you satisfy a mix of types. Give magic rules. The more explicit and constraining the better. Conceptually. Does it fit what you want a rogue or warrior to be able to do? Role and fluff. Common. But not generally true. Yes. Not without magic. Although as I've mentioned Leverage uses Hitter, Hacker, Grifter, Mastermind, Thief. And there's nothing wrong with the 4e generic versions of Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller. [/QUOTE]

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