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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6957560" data-attributes="member: 12731">I believe you still think of archers as lightly armored mobile skirmishers. In previous editions you'd be right.In 5E, however, you're looking at full fighters, with the complete array of sturdiness abilities and features. Try building the following character and see for yourself. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> No, really, far too many players downplay the ways ranged fire have lost all penalties in 5E simply because they do not realize this guy is possible. I'm going to display the character at a fairly high level so you know what to aim for.Race: Variant humanClass: Fighter 6, then Ranger 4, then Fighter 6 for a 16th level characterAbility Score Increases/Feats: 6 (at levels F1, F4, F6, R4, F8 and F12) - Dex 18, Dex 20, Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and two "free".Fighting Styles: Archery and DefenseThis character is no less sturdy than any other fighter. He will easily have AC 19 (and probably more unless you run a low magic campaign) and 120 hp (if not more). He makes four 1d6+15 attacks against every enemy with less than AC 18ish*, not counting the Horde Breaker extra attack, easily being our party's top DPR king (commonly hovering around ~70 dpr unless he rolls exceptionally badly, when he "only" reaches ~50). And I haven't even added poison or nova abilities (like action surge) into this. His range is 120 ft (though his darkvision is only 60 ft I believe), he never gets any penalties from cover, range. He can shoot at foes in melee, he can shoot at foes while in melee himself.*) it's quite common for monsters to get disabled one way or the other; from Monk Stunning Fist or spells or whatever. His attack bonus is +12 I believe (+5 ability +5 proficiency +1 magic +1 sorry can't really remember outright), which is okay when you have advantage (+7 vs AC 18 means rolling 11+, which translates to a 75% hit chance), especially considering how easy it is to "top up" near misses, most notably with Precision Attack battlemaster maneuver. So way more than merely "okay" really.When you say "monsters will be on them in no time" I have found that to be simply untrue. It's not just that the monster's speed is effectively reduced by 30 feet per round (since the characters can backpedal 30 feet to keep their distance), there are also plenty of cheap ways to hamper monsters: low-level spells that trap foes or turn the ground into difficult terrain, abilities that lower the Speed of monsters etc.You really need to have your monsters literally jump the heroes from the shadows to give them a chance of swamping them, and with two characters with darkvision and passive perceptions above 20 that simply becomes impossible even for foes that are supposedly good at sneaking and hiding (unless of course the monster is special, such with a ghost).And Ralf, remember: all of this is taken only from the PHB.All this said, I should say that I am fully aware you can become even sturdier if you focus on protection and defense. It's just that I don't see how that can compensate for slow speed at 5 ft reach. All that's needed is that Regdar the Axedwarf chops down his last goblin and can't reach the next one with his last attack for his DPR to tank. Having a d12 damage die doesn't help you if you can't reliably deliver all your attacks all the rounds.Where 5E differs from every edition before it is in the following areas that make a difference for the above character:The smaller damage die of ranged fire is irrelevant. (The -5/+10 mechanism of Sharpshooter)You add your attack Ability to damage. (Before you had to have a great Strength in addition to Dexterity)You have effectively unlimited range, even with a weapon listed as 30 feet range. You never suffer cover penalties. You aren't penalized for being in melee yourself.I could add more: magic bonuses from your bow stacks with magic bonuses from your ammunition. You never risk attacking an ally when shooting into melee. Crossbows don't have reduced loading times: this character can fire 3x2+1+1=8 bolts in a single round.Any one of these isn't broken. It's when an edition allows all of them you have enough straws to break the camel.</blockquote>

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