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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9003849" data-attributes="member: 87792">4e has better out of combat support that doesn't just involve throwing spells at things than any other edition - and I find that 4e is at its best when it's relatively combat-light, treating the combat as a desert rather than a main course. And the problem with the fighter is that just about all its abilities are combat-only, and the rest of the time it's basically just a strong commoner. (As you say the group fighter ended up cutting down trees; something that could have been done a strong first level commoner)The 4e fighter was far better out of combat than the 5e one; training was worth a lot more, level scaling was more useful, and skills weren't made as redundant by spells.</blockquote>