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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GlassJaw" data-source="post: 2201781" data-attributes="member: 22103">Perhaps but the implied feel of Thief is to avoid combat.  Most of the mechanics and scenarios assumed you would be using some level of stealth and trying to avoid combat.It's this concept that I think should be preserved in a Thief campaign.These are two reasons why I still contend that Thief would be better served by damage system that is not hp-based.  I've been doing a lot of research lately on same variant hp systems.VP/WP - Personally, I think this would work really well for Thief.  I would use the SW system almost as-is although you'd have to tweak the system slightly to allow for non-lethal damage but this would be fairly easy.  For the guards/mooks, you can give them levels but no vitality points.  This would allow them to pose a challenge but account for how they are dropped with a single, well-placed sock of nickles to the head.  If they get sapped and the damage exceeds their Wound points, they are knocked out.  They aren't dying though since it's nonlethal.  I would also keep armor as DR which subtracts damage to WP's.  This would make armor useful for low-level characters or mooks (with little or no VP's) but not as necessary for higher-level heroes.  This is key for me because I'm not a big fan of systems that make armor almost required.  In Thief, the mooks and guards wear armor but not too many others do.  If you create a system/setting/mood where stealth is rewarded or even necessary, I think the higher-level heroes will abandon armor because of the armor check penalties.  You could also use the penalties to attack rolls for carrying heavy loads from Grim Tales. This system also makes sneak attack that much more valuable.  In Grim Tales, sneak attack damage is relatively difficult to get.  There are a few requirements that must be met before you can get it.  It's also an advanced talent so you can't get it to 3rd level.  But if you have sneak attack damage, your chances of knocking people out in a single shot is greatly enchanced.  Again, this is the way it should be IMO.  Mooks, even with a good amount of levels, can still be knocked out.  But if you don't get a good shot in, you are going to have a  PO'ed taffer on your hands.For added realism, you could also have rules for helmets and actually make them worthwhile (i.e. protect you from saps to the head).  If you want the system to be deadlier still, you could also use the Massive Damage System of your liking.  Again, I'd probably use the Grim Tales system: DC 15 Fort save if you take damage higher than your Con score.  And in this case, you automatically drop to -1 and start dying.  For the VP/WP system, you could drop to -1 WP.I also thought about using the Grim 'n Gritty Revised rules (the life bar).  While I like the system, it requires a little more tweaking to the core system than I want to do.  I wasn't a huge fan of the GnG 3.4 rules either.  Again, some good ideas but that requires a substantial change to the core system.---------------This thread has actually got me starting to work on a new campaign myself.  While it's not specifically based on Thief, it borrows heavily from the concept.  Anyway, what I'll probably do is use the classes from Grim Tales but introduce the Dodge/Parry rules from Conan.  Those rules are just awesome.  I think they really translate well to the Thief feel.  I was even considering removing armor class and using opposed attack/defense rolls.  I know it's more rolls but considering how extremely low-magic the setting would be, I don't think it would be difficult to handle.  I'll also use the Grim Tales action point system so those could be used to boost your defense roll.  Great discussion everyone.  Let's keep it going!</blockquote>

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