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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6984536" data-attributes="member: 42582">Why?If the PCs are demigods, or Beowulf-style "culture heroes", then why should an army of orcs make them blink? I remember 10th level fighters in my old AD&D game cutting there way through hundreds of orcs, with their 10 attacks per round that could miss only on a 1 and killed any orc they hit, while the orcs needed natural 20s to hit PCs wearing full plate+4 (AC in the low negatives even disregarding shield and DEX for the inevitable flank/rear attacks).(The maths: with 8 attacks vs the fighter per round, that is 2 hits every 5 rounds for a total of 9 hp of damage. Which means the fighter can kill 190 orc in 20 rounds and take a bit more than 70 hp damage. Average hp for a 10th level fighter with 16 CON is 70.5, but stopping to drink a healing potion during the carnage will only cost 1 round of attacks, and restore about twice as many hp as are taken (on average) in that round.)In my 4e game, the mid-paragon PCs took on phalanxes of hobgoblins (statted as swarms with actual number of soldiers kept narratively somewhat ambiguous, but at 9 or 16 sq somewhere between 20 and 40 of them). (unlike the AD&D game, this is a case of genre/fiction first, mechanics second - but the situation in the fiction is much the same.)As long as the mechanics of the game are fairly transparent, the players should be able to tell whether or not they need to blink in the fact of an orc army, or a couple of dragons, or whatever.Telling people who describe themselves as RPGers, and who describe what they're doing as RPGing, that in fact they are boardgamers, and that in fact they are playing the game contrary to how it is designed or expected to be played, is absolutely pejorative.It's also condescending, because it is setting yourself up as the arbiter of what counts as true RPGing, rather than trying to engage in a dicsussion among peers predicated on the recognition that people play RPGs in a range of ways (a range, furthermore, that these days, is pretty well-known).I've got more actual play posts/threads on these boards than most other regular posters (who, as far as I'm aware, typically have none). They cover my GMing of multiple systems (4e, BW, MHRP). As far as whether or not I can GM an RPG or my games are merely "boardgaming", I'd invite you to read a few and then get back to me (I've s-blocked some links for your convenience).[sblock]<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?282788-Demonomicon-ToH-Orcs-of-Stonefang-Pass-and-Vor-Rukoth-in-hand&p=5259918&viewfull=1#post5259918" target="_blank">Some tweaks to H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop-gaming/299440-exploration-scenarios-my-experiment-last-sunday.html" target="_blank">Time-travel with witches and spiders</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop-gaming/301282-actual-play-examples-balance-between-fiction-mechanics.html" target="_blank">An ancient temple</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/308093-combatless-sessions.html" target="_blank">Combat-free session</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?309950-Actual-play-my-first-quot-social-only-quot-session/page3&p=5650152&viewfull=1#post5650152" target="_blank">Social-only session, and very pivotal for the campaign</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/312367-actual-play-another-combat-free-session-intra-party-dyanmics.html" target="_blank">More combat-free, with a moral twist</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop-gaming/313724-actual-play-pcs-successfully-negotiated-kas.html" target="_blank">First dealing with Kas</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/319168-pcs-defeat-calastryx-get-up-some-other-hijinks.html" target="_blank">Hobgoblins and Calastryx</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/319889-doppelganger-mayhem-long-lead-up.html" target="_blank">Doppelgangers</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/324018-wizard-pc-dies-returns-invoker.html" target="_blank">Wizard reborn as invoker</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?324955-Whelm-reforged-as-Overwhelm- and-other-recent-skill-challenges" target="_blank">Some downtime skill challenges</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">The underdark</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/6039139-post73.html" target="_blank">Rescued by a duergar</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?332755-PCs-bring-destruction-down-upon-the-duergar" target="_blank">The PCs “return the favour”</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?333704-4th-edition-The-fantastic-game-that-everyone-hated/page17&p=6076061&viewfull=1#post6076061" target="_blank">A purple worm</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?335974-I-ran-my-first-Epic-session-last-Sunday" target="_blank">Entering Phaervorul (P2, scaled up)</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?335974-I-ran-my-first-Epic-session-last-Sunday/page2&p=6125246&viewfull=1#post6125246" target="_blank">Epic dreams</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?335974-I-ran-my-first-Epic-session-last-Sunday/page2&p=6140228&viewfull=1#post6140228" target="_blank">More adventures in Phaervorul</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?340383-PCs-kill-Ometh-leading-to-open-season-on-the-Raven-Queen-s-name" target="_blank">On the Barrens in the Abyss</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?342615-PCs-defeat-Miska-but-relinquish-the-Crystal-of-the-Ebon-Flame" target="_blank">In Mal Arundak</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?350416-Mayhem-in-the-Shrine-of-the-Kuo-Toa" target="_blank">The Shrine of the Kuo-toa</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353496-First-time-godslayers-PCs-kill-Torog" target="_blank">The Soul Abattoir, and Torog</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355600-Session-report-(Apect-of)-Vecna-defeated-demon-bargained-with" target="_blank">Into the Feywild</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?358025-Session-Report-Against-the-(Frost)-Giants" target="_blank">Frost giants</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?366933-Grugnur-died-prone-in-a-pile-of-his-own-swordthanes!" target="_blank">More frost giants</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?370221-Session-report-the-Raven-Queen-takes-control-of-winter-in-the-Feywild&p=6411677" target="_blank">The Prince of Frost</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?400493-Session-Report-hijinks-in-the-Elemental-Chaos" target="_blank">Slaads</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?421018-Among-the-Githzerai-and-into-the-Room-with-No-Doors" target="_blank">Githzerai</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?430078-PCs-vs-Queen-of-the-Demonweb-Pits" target="_blank">Confronting Lolth</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?435239-PCs-vs-Demonweb-Pits-%28continued%29" target="_blank">Defeating Lolth</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax" target="_blank">Sealing the Abyss</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468466-Session-report-Victory-over-Orcus-escape-from-the-Abyss" target="_blank">Defeating Orcus, then escaping through the Abyss</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?470791-Session-report-the-party-comes-close-to-a-split-but-not-quite" target="_blank">Arrival at the Mausoleum of the Raven Queen</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?480707-Session-report-PCs-defeat-Kas-but-cede-the-battlefield-to-Osterneth" target="_blank">Still fighting Kas and Jenna Osterneth</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?484945-Session-report-the-Mausoleum-of-the-Raven-Queen/page2&p=6887521&viewfull=1#post6887521" target="_blank">Inside the Mausoleum of the Raven Queen</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque" target="_blank">Trying to hold off the end of the world by defeating the tarrasque</a>[/sblock]Wanting monster mechanics that express the theme and narrative significance of a monster has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a table is boardgaming. (As I think I mentioned upthread, T&T has some of the slimmest stat blocks around in FRPGing, but if you want RPGing that is pretty close to a game like Talisman then I think T&T is as good a vehicle as any.)Why not make those tactics be effective?My first answer is a genre one. In the real world, not all fighting is undertaken in means-end rational ways. For instance, many people - even very intelligent people - have regarded honour as important. (And therefore, for instance, might refrain from [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]'s cage match tactics of grappling a creature and holding it prone while stabbing it to death.) In the world of fantasy, this is even moreso. Conan does not always fight in the most rational or effective way, and he's a somewhat ruthless, rather modernist hero. For characters in JRRT-style romantic fantasy, considerations other than expedience are even more important.Which takes me to my second answer. Within the fiction - given the above considerations of genre - not every creature wants to use effective tactics. A lich may wish to gloat over its victims, rather than simply kill them at long range with a curse. A dragon, convinced of its physical supremacy to all other earthly beings, might revel in that supremacy and disdain hiding behind a network of spies and a nest of koblods. Etc.People who want to run games that evince these sorts of genre tropes aren't simply "playing the game differently from how it was designed". If D&D is designed to do anything, it is designed to support the basic genre tropes of S&S and romantic fantasy.And experience shows it's not that hard to design a monster that, plonked down 100' or so from the party, can provide a reasonable challenge in a fisticuff confrontation. I think everyone recognises that an ogre or a minotaur would provide this sort of challenge to a 1st level AD&D party of 4 or 5 PCs - it will hit every second round or so and typically knock out or kill one PC per hit, while the PCs will probably get one or two hits per round at best and thus need probably 3 or 4 rounds to take the critter down. (I'm assuming pre-UA PCs in this example.) And there's no in-principle reason why this sort of thing can't be scaled up to higher-level PCs, although the parameters of scaling obviously extend beyond hp, AC, to hit numbers and damage.If the GM wants to have some encounters be more subtle than that - with NPCs/monsters using cover, defence in depth, combined arms tactics etc - well nothing wrong with that either. But I personally don't feel that's the norm for the fantasy genre; and I think it would be a weakness in a FRPG (but not, say, a WWI RPG) if it made such tactics essential for being viable in combat.Gygax didn't say that encounters should be balanced so the PCs "win" (by which I assume you mean - beat all their enemies in combat). He said that numbers appearing should be balanced against the strength of the encountering party. Those aren't the same thing, or even approximately the same thing.Gygax's concern, as best I can tell - reading that remark in conjunction with his discussion in the intro of his DMG - is that the players should always have a meaningful choice: so that if they choose to fight the creatures they encounter (eg because they want to get past them) then the outcome is not utterly foregone; or, if they choose to flee the creatures they encounter (out of fear, or a desire to conserve resources, or whatever), theny they have a real chance of doing that too (hence the evasion rules in the classic game).I don't know where the idea came from that it's good GMing to confront the PCs with a situation where there are right and wrong choices in how to approach it (as determined by the GM in choosing the encounter) and the players are expected to puzzle them out (eg by reading the GM's cues), with the stakes for making the wrong choice being TPK or something similar. But it's not found in any of Gygax's advice, and personally I find it a bit at odds with what I enjoy in RPGing.</blockquote>

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