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Message: <blockquote data-quote="powerfamiliar" data-source="post: 6987524" data-attributes="member: 6871221">No this wouldn't be an example of hidden information. It is obvious the Demon Lord is too much of a threat for them. I meant that as an example of a non choice. But you do make a point about certain death. I guess it depends on the game. In most of my campaigns I would not consider it an option. I mean if the players want to then sure, but I think at that point I think the players might be trying to tell me something about their enjoyment of my game. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />. In this exmaple I can't at the moment come up with many ways their death would impact the fiction in a meaningful way. They can roll up new characters, but the outcome of the plot would be the exact same as if they had fled, Demogorgon is doing whatever he was doing (I have not actually read that adventure) and the no new PC have to stop him. I would probably flavor the death of the PCs impacting some NPCs (or maybe some of the new PCs), but I don't see that as particularly meaningful. But I do admit there are situations and campaigns were a TPK is a valid choice. Just of the top of my head a party decides to stop the Lich's plan by drinking his evil potion that would cause mortals to die.  Here perhaps the campaign could continues as the new PCs now try to stop the Lich from gathering the ingredients for a new potion.I would like to do at least some foreshadowing. Rumors would be enough, as would be comments of items found on previously defeated "regular orcs", devastation would be another good one. Essentially what I want is that when as a GM I as "You see a band of orcs, what do you do?" that the players have enough information to make a meaningful choice. If my game world so far has the PCs as being very powerful (let's say level 10) and all orcs encountered so far have at most been CR 1-2, I can't expect the PCs choice to be significant if this band is suddenly CR 12. In this case I do think something as simple as "these orcs are far better equipped than previous bands" would be enough to make the choice meaningful. I just don't want my players playing the game of "guess what the DM wants us to do in this encounter". In this specific encounter I think if the orcs had been CR 5 instead it would've been fine with no foreshadowing, I would count that encounter as the foreshadowing that stronger orcs are abound.I think hidden information is fine up to a point, and it really depends on what kind of decisions you want your players making. Let's say the leader of the thieve's guild is really a disguised demon lord. There is a confrontation between the  lowish level players and the leader and a few guards. I think this is bad hidden information if it's intended as a choice for the players to fight or not. If you threw out some foreshadowing about it, and the opportunity to investigate then it would be fine. The player's don't need perfect info, just enough for their choices to be more than random. Verisimilitude is one of the most important things in my opinion for an enjoyable game, but in the end it is still a game. In the above example it would be great verisimilitude for the demon lord to be very concerned with hiding his true being and have no clues of his origin. But in most games I think it falls flats if he just TPKs the party that had no way of knowing.I also don't like telling my players they can't beat something. But I would not think of a situation presented with an insurmountable foe as a choice. I think non choice situations are fine in RPGing as a GM, but I think it's no use fooling ourselves into thinking they are choices and not railroads.</blockquote>

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