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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 6988229" data-attributes="member: 6785785">Yeah, that was pretty much my point. No campaign or adventure is just one thing. Or at least, most aren't. See, I understand your use of the term no-win situation. I don't really look at it that way, because what constitutes a win really depends on the circumstances...sometimes, survival itself is a win. But we can use your term for ease of discussion.I have no problem putting players in no win situations like that. In fact, that was my original point...I find it beneficial from time to time to do exactly that. I do this because I find that it helps overall....each potential encounter is viewed with less certainty of success. I DO want my players to think that failure is an option. I do want them to struggle with deciding between the lesser of two evils. Now...I don't do this all the time. It tends to happen here and there....usually as a result of my players doing something unexpected or going someplace they shouldn't go to....but not frequently at all. Okay...I think I worded my question improperly. How do you determine the DC? How do you decide if something is easy or medium or hard? I understand that player or monster level is one axis on the chart...what determines the other?Well, in the case of Out of the Abyss....spoilers follow for anyone who doesn't want to know...the players have been wandering the Underdark and have come to a Kuo-toan (I think...maybe troglodyte, I forget...some slimy subterranean race, anyway) city. There have been several escapades through the Underdark at this point, and they've been pursued by stow the entire time. The PCs are there in the city just as Demogorgon rises from the underground lake and then proceeds to lay waste to the city. This is not intended to be a major decision point for the players so much as it is to show the true threat and to foreshadow later parts of the adventure. I used it as an example not expecting a discussion on the importance of player agency so much as to serve as an example of how an encounter with a superior force can help at times, per the point I reiterated above. The 300 orc example was given as just an example. Perhaps the PCs have been sent to observe enemy movements. When they find the enemy, they discover that many more tribes have banded together to threaten the entire region. Armed with this knowledge the PCs don't rush back to the city to warn their friend the duke...they decide to charge, because hey, they're 10th level and orcs are only CR 1/8 creatures.That example was provided to show how meta-game thinking can irk me. The focus on the mechanics of the game, rather than of the "reality" of the fictional world. That is not how I want my players to make decisions. And our fictional world is less mythic than that; we don't have PCs slaying enemies by the score. Nothing is wrong with either of those things, it's just not how we do things. That's cool. I like player agency just fine. I just know that it cannot determine everything, so I don't pretend to try and let it. Sometimes I do indeed determine events for the game.  Then you both share the strange definition. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Honestly, if your level 4 PCs who are underequipped and who've been lost for several tendays in the Underdark decide that they want to attack Demogorgon, that is indeed their choice. I really doubt most groups would even consider it...and while I would certainly try and impress upon them the gravity of the situation and the danger...if they still chose to attack, then that's them making a choice that will likely have meaningful consequences. They have plenty of meaningful choices up to that point and hopefully many after. Really? So you would never have one encounter where the players can bluff, bribe, or fight their way past a guard and then another where they can only bluff or fight because the second guard is truly devoted and won't accept a bribe?All your encounters offer the same potential solutions? Or the same number of potential solutions? Yeah, I can understand that. I think we're examining the Demogorgon example in a vacuum, rather than as part of a whole. It is pretty much a framing device used to move the story along. It's the big bad showing up and the characters catch a glimpse. And as I said above to @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a>, I strive to allow player agency as much as possible. But I think I also do have an impact on the choices they have in any given situation. That's part of the job of the DM. Yes, the players can also come up with ideas...but the DM determines many of the possibilities for them.</blockquote>

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