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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7005621" data-attributes="member: 87792">And this is the area where 4e was far and away superior to other editions of D&D in my experience. 4e takes an approach for its statblocks "It's not who you are underneath but what you do on the outside that counts".Below is the standard 5e Adult Green Dragon statblock pasted from the SRD. I am very interested in seeing what you think that that statblock says about the personality of the dragon in question and how it differentiates it from any other adult dragon other than that it has slightly different numbers and a different breath attack. (And it swims rather than flies, burrows, or climbs).[h=2]Adult Green Dragon[/h] Huge dragon, lawful evil Armor Class 19 (natural armor) Hit Points 207 (18d12 + 90) Speed 40 ft., fly 80 ft., swim 40 ft.[TABLE="width: 1"][TR][TH="bgcolor: #A68563"]STR[/TH][TH="bgcolor: #A68563"]DEX[/TH][TH="bgcolor: #A68563"]CON[/TH][TH="bgcolor: #A68563"]INT[/TH][TH="bgcolor: #A68563"]WIS[/TH][TH="bgcolor: #A68563"]CHA[/TH][/TR][TR][TD="bgcolor: #FFF2E5"]23(+6)[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #FFF2E5"]12(+1)[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #FFF2E5"]21(+5)[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #FFF2E5"]18(+4)[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #FFF2E5"]15(+2)[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #FFF2E5"]17(+3)[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]Saving Throws Dex +6, Con +10, Wis +7, Cha +8 Skills Deception +8, Insight +7, Perception +12, Persuasion +8, Stealth +6 Damage Immunities poison Condition Immunities poisoned Senses blindsight 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., passive Perception 22 Languages Common, Draconic Challenge 15 (13,000 XP) Amphibious. The dragon can breathe air and water. Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead. [h=3]Actions[/h]Multiattack. The dragon can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws. Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 17 (2d10 + 6) piercing damage plus 7 (2d6) poison damage. Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d6 + 6) slashing damage. Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage. Frightful Presence. Each creature of the dragon’s choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature’s saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon’s Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours. Poison Breath (Recharge 5–6). The dragon exhales poisonous gas in a 60-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 18 Constitution saving throw, taking 56 (16d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.I see almost nothing telling me from the stats what you say is the important part of the dragon other than the skills. For that matter when it goes claw/claw/bite (as it does under multiattack) I can't tell it from other monsters in general making three attacks by the mechanics.Below is the Young Black Dragon from the 4e Monster Vault - and it tells me how the dragon moves. It doesn't just waddle or fly up to people and make full attacks. Yes, it goes claw/claw or bite. But rather than no-selling attacks with Legendary Resistance 3/day it shows me why and how dragons are overwhelming thanks to Action Recovery and Instinctive Devouring (and doesn't just no-sell the way every other big monster does). And then there's the Shroud of Gloom. The dragon using its specifically draconic magic in combat.<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AIVDjpIF1Is/TJyOk8zklsI/AAAAAAAAATw/5qz-ZI67Qb0/s1600/black-dragon.JPG" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" />The 4e statblock is shorter and easier to use. It also provides me much more flavour and knowledge of how the dragon acts when the rubber meets the road - and it's laid out in a way that is so much faster to get at. Before that? It's about the same.And then there was the 3.X one. I'd have posted a 3.X dragon from the 3.X SRD but the 3.X SRD doesn't even provide something usable - <a href="http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonsChromatic.htm#greenDragon" target="_blank">merely a set of formulae to make one</a>. So here's the Pathfinder adult black dragon.[h=3]Black Dragon, Adult[/h][TABLE="class: sites-layout-name-two-column sites-layout-hbox, width: 1074"][TR][TD="class: sites-layout-tile sites-tile-name-content-1"][TABLE="width: 100%"][TR][TD="width: 85%, align: left"]Adult Black Dragon[/TD][TD="align: right"]CR 11[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]XP 12,800CE Large <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#Dragon" target="_blank">dragon</a> (<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Water" target="_blank">water</a>)Init +5; Senses <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon#TOC-Additional-Dragon-Rules" target="_blank">dragon senses</a>; <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception" target="_blank">Perception</a> +24Aura <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Frightful-Presence-Ex-" target="_blank">frightful presence</a> (180 ft., DC 19) DEFENSEAC 28, touch 10, flat-footed 27 (+1 Dex, +18 natural, –1 size)hp 161 (14d12+70)Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +12DR 5/magic; Immune acid, paralysis, sleep; SR 22 OFFENSESpeed 60 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.Melee bite +21 (2d6+10), 2 claws +20 (1d8+7), 2 wings +15 (1d6+3), tail +15 (1d8+10)Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)Special Attacks <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Breath-Weapon-Su-" target="_blank">breath weapon</a> (80-ft. line, DC 22, 12d6 acid), corrupt waterSpell-Like Abilities (CL 14th)At will—<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkness" target="_blank">darkness</a> (60-ft. radius)Spells Known (CL 3rd)1st (6/day)—<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alarm" target="_blank">alarm</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-armor" target="_blank">mage armor</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/obscuring-mist" target="_blank">obscuring mist</a>0 (at will)—<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dancing-lights" target="_blank">dancing lights</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-magic" target="_blank">detect magic</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending" target="_blank">mending</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/message" target="_blank">message</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/read-magic" target="_blank">read magic</a> STATISTICSStr 25, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 14Base Atk +14; CMB +22; CMD 33 (37 vs. trip)Feats <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/alertness---final" target="_blank">Alertness</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-initiative-combat---final" target="_blank">Improved Initiative</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-vital-strike-combat---final" target="_blank">Improved Vital Strike</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final" target="_blank">Power Attack</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/skill-focus---final" target="_blank">Skill Fo</a><a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/skill-focus---final" target="_blank">cus</a> (<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth" target="_blank">Stealth</a>), <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final" target="_blank">Vital Strike</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-focus-combat---final" target="_blank">Weapon Focus</a> (bite)Skills <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly" target="_blank">Fly</a> +12, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/handle-animal" target="_blank">Handle Animal</a> +16, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/intimidate" target="_blank">Intimidate</a> +19, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/knowledge" target="_blank">Knowledge</a> (arcana) +19, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception" target="_blank">Perception</a> +24, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/spellcraft" target="_blank">Spellcraft</a> +19, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth" target="_blank">Stealth</a> +20, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/swim" target="_blank">Swim</a> +32Languages Common, Draconic, Giant SPECIAL ABILITIES[h=4]Corrupt Water (Sp)[/h]Once per day an adult or older black dragon can stagnate 10 cubic feet of still water, making it foul and unable to support water-breathing life. The ability spoils liquids containing water. Liquid-based magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature's possession must succeed on a Will save (DC 19) or become ruined. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. Its range is 180 ft.[h=4]Speak with Reptiles (Sp)[/h]A young or older black dragon gains the constant spell-like ability to speak with reptiles. This functions as <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/speak-with-animals" target="_blank">speak with animals</a>, but only with reptilian animals. swamp stride, water breathing[h=4]Swamp Stride (Ex)[/h]A very young or older black dragon can move through bogs and quicksand without penalty at its normal speed.[h=4]Water Breathing (Ex)[/h]A black dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]So what does it do when the rubber meets the road? Bite Claw Claw Wing Buffet Wing Buffet Tail Slap. Or breathes acid. *yawn* Or, admittedly, turns the lights out on people the way a cleric can but at will and bigger. Meanwhile it has nine cross-referenced spells and seven cross-referenced feats so the statblock is incomplete.2e is no better. It hides its rules in paragraphs of junk - for example the Dragon's mule-kick has a paragraph of its own (and applies to all dragons). Or ones like the following:Spells: Dragons learn spells haphazardly over the years. The DM should randomly determine which spells any particular dragon knows. The dragon can cast each spell once per day, unless random determination indicates the same spell more than once, in which case the dragon can cast it more than once a day. Dragons to not use spell books or pray to deities; they simply sleep, concentrate when they awaken, and remember their spells. Dragon spells have only a verbal component; the spells have a casting time of 1, regardless of level. Dragons cannot physically attack, use their breath weapon, use their magical abilities, or fly (except to glide) while casting a spell.Oh, and under black dragons:[FONT=&quot]Black dragons are born with an innate water breathing ability and an immunity to acid. As they age, they gain the following additional powers:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Juvenile: darkness three times a day in a 10' radius per age category of the dragon. Adult: corrupt water once a day. For every age category a dragon attains, it can stagnate 10 cubic feet of water, making it become still, foul, inert, and unable to support animal life. When this ability is used against potions and elixirs, they become useless if they roll a 15 or better on 1d20. Old: plant growth once a day. Venerable: summon insects once a day. Great wyrm: charm reptiles three times a day. This operates as a charm mammals spell, but is applicable only to reptiles.[/FONT]In short these are innate abilities that don't tell me how they act. But they make the creatures harder to run.Dragons were your example. And the 4e dragon statblock I've presented is more flavourful, tells me more about how dragons move and act when the rubber meets the road, and is much easier to use than the 2e, the 3.5, the Pathfinder, and the 5e statblock.1: What do you think classes were and what is the point of them? Classes are about pigeonholing and creating archetypes.2: As demonstrated with the dragon example, every edition of D&D has done this. Almost all those statblocks for dragons have been about combat.As I have demonstrated, welcome to D&D. 4e gives you the most customisation possible of any version of D&D. It also gives the monsters a personality in combat and in the case of dragons says how the types differ other than through simply having different abilities.Really? That's how the 2e design reads to me. The 4e design is let's make actual meaningful differences in the behaviour and approach of dragon types.----> GURPS is thataway<---- Fate is thataway.When you play D&D you are playing a game with hit points and classes. You are playing a game designed round a class and level system.And 4e doesn't do that. 4e statblocks are best used as descriptive tools so you can describe the monsters as they face the players.4e is literally the only version of D&D I don't find incredibly constraining this way. As DM I can make monsters behave the way I want. There's no formula saying that "All ogres use d8s for hit dice unless they have class levels" because that would be ridiculous.In which case why do you have statblocks at all? If statblocks took up a couple of paragraphs per monster and didn't excite me I'd dump them as not fit for purpose. 4e statblocks tell me how monsters behave when the rubber meets the road - but at no other time. They make monsters move differently (just ask any 4e player who's met a kobold infestation and been swarmed by the annoying little pests).And here you have the cart before the horse. The statblock doesn't control how you portray a monster. How you portray a monster, how it acts, and how it moves controls the statblock. You work out what you want the monster to do under physical pressure, turn that into powers, and write that down, testing it against some very simple formulae.And again I consider this a miserable failure. A good example in 4e would be the difference between goblins and kobolds. Both small, weak creatures - and in most editions of D&D you can barely tell them apart. In 4e? A kobold gets a free shift (a free 5ft step every turn) and you're going to end up swarmed and hamstrung by the little @%$&s. Meanwhile the more cowardly goblins get to shift after you've missed one. And gnomes? Get to turn invisible when you try and hit them.Which is why the default of claw/claw/bite/wing buffet/wing buffet/tail slap is so silly.And 4e does this. All dragons fly, have action recovery, and have instinctive actions. They are terrifying. And they are terrifying because they are overwhelming and powerful. But what their instinctive actions are differs.I don't even believe you believe this. I don't believe that you don't think that your weapon choice tells you nothing about personality. I don't believe that you don't think that your spell choice tells you nothing about personality. I don't believe that you believe what you are good at and what you train and practice tells you nothing about personality. Or do you genuinely believe that working at things does absolutely nothing at all to reflect what you care about? And what you do and what you practice and what you learn to do well has nothing to do with personality?</blockquote>

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