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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6585567" data-attributes="member: 996">It's also pretty easy to house-rule back in.&nbsp; Assuming casters rolling d20 + stat + prof, the base for each 'stat defense' would need to be 14 to have the same chance of 'missing' (successful save).&nbsp; Of course, some of those would be 14 (or even 13) and never get better....&nbsp;Can't argue with that.&nbsp; And it is a lot harder to just house-rule in.&nbsp;Strikes me as the kind of thing that'd be a DM-arbitrated action in 5e.&nbsp; You may not have Fast-Talk, but you can still talk fast and see if the DM will give you a deceit roll to save your blown diplomacy check....&nbsp;+10 is pretty crazy.&nbsp; Do many creatures have all 6 stats at 30, like that?&nbsp; Even all three of the more typical save stats?&nbsp; Part of the fun/challenge is picking the right spell for the job, that can include forcing the best (worst) save.&nbsp;So it's more of a spotlight balance thing.&nbsp; Spells shine against most creatures, not so much vs legendary ones, who I suppose, are meant to stick around for a while, like 4e Solos, not just fail their first save and get butchered in a round or two.&nbsp; &nbsp;Open-hand is about as close as you can come to non-magic-using while still having Ki points.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> As much fun as a wizard?&nbsp; For 15 levels? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> &nbsp;DPR is fun for those who are happy with just DPR, sure.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm generally not - I have a feeling we have that in common.I'm guessing the occasional legendary monster raining on the caster parade doesn't spoil the whole experience - not nearly to the point of taking it down to less fun than playing a Champion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6585567, member: 996"] It's also pretty easy to house-rule back in. Assuming casters rolling d20 + stat + prof, the base for each 'stat defense' would need to be 14 to have the same chance of 'missing' (successful save). Of course, some of those would be 14 (or even 13) and never get better.... Can't argue with that. And it is a lot harder to just house-rule in. Strikes me as the kind of thing that'd be a DM-arbitrated action in 5e. You may not have Fast-Talk, but you can still talk fast and see if the DM will give you a deceit roll to save your blown diplomacy check.... +10 is pretty crazy. Do many creatures have all 6 stats at 30, like that? Even all three of the more typical save stats? Part of the fun/challenge is picking the right spell for the job, that can include forcing the best (worst) save. So it's more of a spotlight balance thing. Spells shine against most creatures, not so much vs legendary ones, who I suppose, are meant to stick around for a while, like 4e Solos, not just fail their first save and get butchered in a round or two. Open-hand is about as close as you can come to non-magic-using while still having Ki points. ;) As much fun as a wizard? For 15 levels? ;) DPR is fun for those who are happy with just DPR, sure. I'm generally not - I have a feeling we have that in common. I'm guessing the occasional legendary monster raining on the caster parade doesn't spoil the whole experience - not nearly to the point of taking it down to less fun than playing a Champion. [/QUOTE]

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