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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Badwe" data-source="post: 4707946" data-attributes="member: 61762">I don’t really get the “marketing constraint” quip.  At the time delve came out, I already owned all of the tile sets it uses and was pleased to see unique ways to arrange them all and make use of them.  I think this is a logical fallacy that many on these boards have: it’s not a greedy, corporate move to make products people want to buy and make them work with each other.  That’s just good business practices (and a good game).  Is the DMG a product of marketing constraints because it gives you an XP system to put monsters from the MM into to create encounters?  Would the MM be a better product if there was no immediate way to use it alongside the DMG? Of course not.On the topic of introductory pages: I had been wondering what the origin of the delve was and I found the pages to be a great explanation that gave me perspective on the goals of a delve format vs. other types of adventures.  The PC vs. DM is admittedly something to be pursued with trepidation, but is not as soul-crushing as the OP posits.  As they mention: the delve is a format origination from a con where players have disposable characters that they get to see die in glorious battle instead of carefully defending as in their normal campaigns.  I think the real issue here is that using the term PC vs. DM, along with the tiles, conjures images of D&D as a boardgame that many posters are horrified at the prospect of.   Just replace the term with “Rat Bastard DM” and you have the same paradigm but with a, somehow, less negative connotation.I saw something similar with the orc encounter and was somewhat surprised by how willing some of the higher level encounters were to exceed.  For reference, his defenses are AC 22; Fortitude 22, Reflex 19, Will 21.  So if the typical level 3 adventurer will have a +4/5 for their primary stat, a +1 for half level, +2/3 for weapon, and +0/1 depending on if they’ve managed to get a magic weapon (if they’ve made these characters starting at level 3 they most certainly would), then you’re looking at +5 to +10 to hit, potentially (+3 to +7 for implements).   Figure in flanking for AC and you have +7 to +12, so anywhere between need a 17 to hit to a 10, ranging between nearly impossible to “as expected”, which for a level n+5 elite is very impressive (the magic of brutes, they’re the most fun to beat on).  Another upside is most non-AC attacks are hitting reflex at this level, so they have a 3 point difference, comparable to the weapon prof bonus.  Those hitting fort are likely screwed, what would you expect from a tough orc?  Overall a tough guy, but I have found brutes to pose the least threat to my PCs that are able to set up a good advantage.I personally am happy with the money I’ve invested in delve.  This is one of the few products I’m eager to see a sequel to a year from now (PHB2 and MM2 I accept, not so keen on DMG2 or sequels to splat books).</blockquote>

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