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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 1579385" data-attributes="member: 10397">Well I see things have been going pretty well in my absence, which is good....lets see here... Well, I agree that the existence of inherently good and inherently evil magic is common...but I still think anything resembling DnD "Divine", while it does exist, is pretty rare.  This to me seems almost anime-like. It makes sense with some gods (Pelor springs to mind), but its inherent in the Cleric spell list, and it doesnt make any sense for a lot of gods...not just evil ones either.  Oh I realize it doesnt match well. But that is...so we are always told...one of the main basis for the Cleric class.Which I have always found odd. Armor wearing people with some degree of magic/miracle casting ability is one thing...but clerics cast 8th and 9th level, high fantasy style spells, not just a little healing and combat-enhancing.Thats more like the Paladin, the class that actually begins to fit the templar/holy warrior archtype. People keep saying this, and yet within the material, in all additions, theres a lot of talk of using this or that class or presige class to represent this or that fantasy archtype or concept or character.Now no it cant encompass all fantasy ideas.And yes, it does its own things as well. I feel DnD is a trifle schizophrenic. It tries to be generic fantasy, and its own genre, at the same time. Yes, it is. This is stated in the rules and flavor text of the game time and time again. Besides which, they are by their very nature...they are earthly servants of gods or philosophies, and minister those beliefs to others. Thats what a priest is. Incorect, if the Mage can do those things, but not well...or even if he can do them well, but another class can do them better.The Magister from Arcana Unearthed is pretty much exactly how I think a primary mage class should be. They can do some of everything...but the Greenbond is still a better healer. I will one of these days. Although having magic divided up into "elements"...I'm not sure about either. But I plan to have a peek at it somewhere along the way. To me, thats the paladin.If they were holy crusaders prepared for war, they would be mostly a militant class, with deccent spellcasting (as they were in previous edition). Now, they are full blown primary spellcasters who are also competent warriors, in and of them selves, no feats, alternate forms, or anything else required just from their own class stats/profciencies/spells. And they are the only class that is such. This certainly does raise some questions. Especially say in the Realms. Mystra is the embodiment of all magic...and yet magic is split down the middle. Its weird. Which is why I'd just prefer magic  as a whole, and any subdivisions to be based solely on class. In a manner. Often mythic/literary wizards cast spells that involving invoking the names of gods...but it is unusual...not unheard of, but in my experience unusual, to have spellcasters who's magic is directly granted, day by day, by a god as Cleric's spells are in DnD.The only example I am familiar with is in the Eddings's Elenium/Tamuli. And they were basicaly "arcane" spellcasters in terms of what their magic did, and they had to study the "secrets" to learn them, but it did come from their chosen god. See above. they are called priests, within the game, frequently. A Cleric will generally be better in defense than a specialist Abjurer, which I find silly. Just as a Cleric is better with Undead than a specialist Necromancer, which is also odd. To a point. Wizards can know more spells. What I am getting at is the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list itself makes me feel like they are specialists in offense/illusion/teleportation rather than true master spellcasters. My problem is how madatory it is without altering the rules. Many classes depend on gods or at least religion in some form for their class functions.And in my experience within fantasy literature and stories (which I would hazard to say are in the end the bigger influence on DnD) its at most half and half, and actually in my experience having lots of gods and having them extremely active is pretty unusual. Especialy active in the sense of granting classes/characters their powers, directly. I'm pretty much in agreement with all your saying Psi I think theres extensive reason for the paladin class to exist. The archtype of the knight/holy warrior is in my experience more common than that of the Cleric, and the Paladin if you remove the alignment restriction, embodies said archtype very well. Mechnicaly, the Paladin fits the Templar a lot better.And Clerics are now a primary spellcasting class, not a militant class that can do some magic to better serve their godmechanicaly the Cleric is predominately the spellcasting priest/miracle worker. However, they have been allowed to retain considerable combat power as well, which is one reason they are a mildly overpowered class.This post is getting pretty long so I will come back later and respond to some more comments. I just want to thank you guys for keeping this thread so nice and friendly and reasonble...just the way I like it.</blockquote>

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