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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 6619150" data-attributes="member: 6788736">Huh? I wholly disagree. Its no different to setting DC's for checks, allowing some checks and denying others, awarding advantage or disadvantage, or anything else to do with the environment. Anyways it misses the point. Tell the Rogue player that the default setting is:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Once you attack from hiding, and your attack is resolved, you give your position away (hit or miss, barring taking the Skulker feat) and thus are automatically perceived. (RAW)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Observation includes both seeing and hearing (and by extension noticing you with any other senses that could reasonably notice you). Hiding includes not being seen or heard. (RAW)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Then tell him that you cant attempt to hide while you are under even casual observation, and when you say 'hiding' you don't mean 'take the Hide action', you mean 'hiding'. Point to the sidebar and show him that the hiding sidebar as written doesnt mention the Hide action, it mentions 'hiding' (RAW)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Explain to him that this represents the obvious situation that you arent hidden from someone who knows where you are.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Explain to him that in some corner cases you may allow such a thing (should he find himself in a trench or in long grass, where it is possible for him to duck down into total cover or concealment and move sufficiently far enough after ducking down that the enemy cant know where he is, or if the enemy is sufficiently distracted, or if he doubles back around and strikes from a different location, or if he can teleport or go invisible behind the cover etc etc</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Finally, if he still has an issue and wants to refer you to an online forum to argue the point further, point out that those guys arent DMing the game, and while you respect his opinion, this is how hiding works in this game.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">As a last resort if he's still pissed off, after all that, pour him a glass of concrete and get him to drink it so he can harden the hell up. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></li> </ul>Again, I wholly disagree. Where are you drawing that inference from? I've told you where I get my inference from. Both from my understanding of what 'hidden' means, and what it represents from a mechanical position (the enemy doesn't know where you are, you gain advantage on attack rolls as a result, and you cant be targeted with spells or attacks), and the fact the sidebar you refer to in question is not written as a rule (it doesn't refer to the Hide action expressly or implicitly)And for what it's worth re your fireball example, I would happily allow advantage on a dexterity save against a fireball if the situation (not the rule) called for one. Thats why we have a person running the game and not a computer. I'd probably also call for a ranged spell attack roll if my player was trying to lob a fireball through an arrow slit at maximum range in the heat of battle too, to see if it impacted against the wall rather than just have it automatically fly through.That probably irks you, but meh. That's how I run my games. Rulings, not rules.The player and DM should talk about it then. Explain to him that 'advantage at will' is not balanced as a 2nd level ability, and furthermore that 'hidden' in your games means 'don't know where you are' and not 'cant be seen'. Explain this isnt WOW and 'steath' isnt an invisibility button that removes object permanence from creatures noticing you duck into cover. Try and come up with a workable solution (even letting the player retcon his character or whatever). Why on earth was he pissed off? The referee made a ruling. Sounds like he took it personally. Sorry, I know he's a friend, but he just sounds like a whinger.What was his 'logical explanation' for hiding while being observed, aside from trying to tell the DM that the creature in question the DM was running chose to forget about him or stop keeping tabs on him after he shot him in the neck?Thats a question entirely up to the DM.</blockquote>

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